The Great Space Marine Tactics Seminar
(Summer of 2001)
Hello everyone
The topic stands:
If there were a seminar on Space Marine Tactics, with members of every
chapter there - what topics would you like to see discussed most?
scenario based tactics?
--------------------------------------------------------
The great SM Tactics Seminar - what would you want to see discussed?
BloodAngelBrotherEdward.
RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? Doomhawk
(10/26/2001 14:27).
the role
of tactical squads..... BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/29/2001 13:05).
EMPEROR PRAISE BROTHER EDWARD!!! Turpin (10/30/2001 15:49).
RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? RaisedFist
(10/26/2001 14:32).
RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? Bob Long
(10/26/2001 14:36).
your no
space marine commander! (NT) darkarchon (10/27/2001 11:12).
Bloody oath Larke (10/29/2001 0:27).
The Dark angels chapter joins
the discussion. TzeentchHorror (10/26/2001 14:42).
RE: The
Dark angels chapter joins the discussion. Spacer (10/26/2001 18:23).
Say something constructive, heretic! (NT) TzeentchHorror (10/27/2001 20:45).
The Deathwing
khirareq (10/29/2001 13:55).
RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? Kuljoe14
(10/26/2001 19:17).
Tactica:
Dreadnoughts Ventyr (10/27/2001 16:54).
Excellent essay Brother - one question though... BloodAngelBrotherEdward
(10/27/2001
17:36).
Terminators Ventyr (10/28/2001 14:41).
RE: Terminators thedisposableman (10/28/2001 15:42).
you asked about assault terminators... BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/29/2001
12:11).
RE: you asked about assault terminators... SirGore (10/29/2001 12:49).
RE: RE: you asked about assault terminators... visigoth (10/29/2001 14:31).
We need to hear from a WolfLord! BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/29/2001
15:01).
RE: you asked about assault terminators... Ventyr (10/29/2001 13:23).
yikes! what have my mechanics been doing! BloodAngelBrotherEdward
(10/29/2001 14:43).
Now you misunderstood a bit =) Ventyr (10/29/2001 15:42).
now THAT makes a lot more sense :-) BloodAngelBrotherEdward
(10/29/2001 22:41).
RE: Now you misunderstood a bit =) sinngrin (10/30/2001 8:24).
RE: Terminators erdagon (10/29/2001 13:20).
RE: Excellent essay Brother - one question though... castellanlazarus (10/30/2001
6:09).
Crusader tactics BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/30/2001 10:10).
RE: Crusader tactics castellanlazarus (10/31/2001 1:30).
RE: Tactica: Dreadnoughts thedisposableman (10/28/2001 11:44).
RE: Tactica: Dreadnoughts t_ray (10/30/2001 13:18).
The Ultra Marines are here! (does
happy dance!) ultra_marine (10/26/2001 20:26).
an Ultramarine
asks about assassins and scouts... BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/29/2001
13:18).
RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? Runefang
(10/26/2001 21:05).
Dreadnought
and Land Raider Tactica. TzeentchHorror (10/28/2001 0:05).
Enter Scythes of the Emperor egbertdfat
(10/26/2001 22:12).
favorite
fast attack options BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/26/2001 23:15).
RE: Enter
Scythes of the Emperor thedisposableman (10/27/2001 23:00).
bumpity bump :-) (NT) BloodAngelBrotherEdward
(10/27/2001 10:54).
Question about land speeders egbertdfat
(10/27/2001 11:09).
RE: Question
about land speeders MidnightHunter (10/27/2001 13:51).
RE: RE: Question about land speeders WolfLordSorenBloodfist (10/30/2001
13:02).
All Hail the Emperor! skyfaller
(10/27/2001 13:27).
RE: All
Hail the Emperor! skyfaller (10/27/2001 13:58).
Basic Adeptus Astartes Tactica - and several questions BloodAngelBrotherEdward
(10/27/2001 16:02).
RE: Basic Adeptus Astartes Tactica - and several questions Ventyr (10/27/2001
17:06).
RE: Basic Adeptus Astartes Tactica - and several questions ender (10/29/2001
18:22).
RE: RE: All Hail the Emperor! smileyface (10/27/2001 21:14).
RE: RE: All Hail the Emperor! ender (10/29/2001 17:34).
SM have no real tactics Sygmar
(10/27/2001 16:33).
RE: SM
have no real tactics mejahyan (10/27/2001 16:54).
a purity seal for Brother Mejahyan :-) (NT) BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/27/2001
17:22).
RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? mejahyan
(10/27/2001 17:09).
Artillery,
and how to live with it GreyGriffin (10/28/2001 1:41).
Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? egbertdfat (10/29/2001 0:04).
About "cheese" Ventyr (10/29/2001 13:48).
Yes there are, though good commanders can beat them thedisposableman
(10/29/2001 15:45).
RE: RE:
The great SM Tactics Seminar - what would you want to see discussed? skyfaller
(10/29/2001 13:33).
RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? BorisGT
(10/28/2001 17:55).
RE: RE:
The great SM Tactics Seminar - what would you want to see discussed? sulla
(10/29/2001 0:49).
Offensive
Strategies and Defensive Formations BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/29/2001
13:33).
Where are all the Blood Angel
players (NT) Larke (10/29/2001 0:39).
yes...
BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/29/2001 13:37).
RE: yes... Larke (10/30/2001 2:48).
making a BA army.... BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/30/2001 9:46).
RE: making a BA army.... Larke (10/31/2001 0:45).
RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? silentpoet
(10/29/2001 13:19).
not me
:-) BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/29/2001 13:36).
RE: not me :-) silentpoet (10/29/2001 13:51).
RE: not me :-) silentpoet (10/29/2001 14:04).
scouts :-) BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/29/2001 14:51).
Force composition, scouts, and other stuff egbertdfat (10/30/2001 7:57).
I agree completely, and answers to your questions :-)
BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/30/2001 16:40).
RE: not me :-) Ventyr (10/29/2001 14:05).
fighting the Eldar? Tell us how! BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/29/2001 15:06).
RE: fighting the Eldar? Tell us how! Ventyr (10/29/2001 15:48).
Dark Angel Assault Marine tactics
erdagon (10/29/2001 13:32).
BLOOD RAGE!! The Fleshtearers
are Here. ender (10/29/2001 14:13).
there
has been much discussion on this... BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/29/2001
16:15).
drop pod
army mwdalrymple (10/30/2001 8:58).
RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? castellanlazarus
(10/30/2001 6:19).
All Hail!!! The World Eaters enter
the discussion! whoops, wrong seminar. straightjacket
(10/30/2001 8:34).
*sigh*
foolish betrayers... mwdalrymple (10/30/2001 9:26).
Thats
it...just a little closer...Got ya! SirGore (10/30/2001 15:19).
The Use of Rhino mwdalrymple (10/30/2001
9:27).
oops.
messed up, read this one! mwdalrymple (10/30/2001 9:54).
The Rhino and its fellows GreyGriffin (10/30/2001 15:36).
Vanquisher? We may only dream. GreyGriffin (10/30/2001 15:43).
Rhinos, razorbacks, predator variants and more... BloodAngelBrotherEdward
(10/30/2001 18:12).
RE: Rhinos, razorbacks, predator variants and more... GreyGriffin (10/31/2001
6:22).
RE: RE: Rhinos, razorbacks, predator variants and more... GreyGriffin (10/31/2001
6:27).
bump (nt) ender (10/30/2001 11:52).
RE: bump (nt) mwdalrymple (10/30/2001
12:18).
RE: RE: bump (nt) mwdalrymple
(10/30/2001 14:36).
The great SM Tactics Seminar - what would you want to see discussed?
. (94 Replies).
BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/26/2001 14:20 (10/31/2001 6:27)
Greetings Battle Brothers!
If there were a great seminar on Space Marine Tactics, with members
of every chapter
present - what topics would you like to see discussed?
I'm looking forward to hearing from ALL the chapters!
Glory forever to the Emperor ~ Brother Edward
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RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? . (2 Replies).
Doomhawk[]. 10/26/2001 14:27 (10/30/2001 15:49)
>> Greetings Battle Brothers!
>>
>> If there were a great seminar on Space Marine Tactics, with
members of every chapter
present - what topics would you like to see discussed?
>>
>> I'm looking forward to hearing from ALL the chapters!
>>
>> Glory forever to the Emperor ~ Brother Edward
Well, I'd like to see how people use their Tactical (or similar)
squads! I use mine as mobile
jacks-of-all-trades. Since I play Black Templars, I give them
BP and CCW (since a bolt
pistol is identical to a bolter when moving), a power sword/fist
for extra punch in CC, and a
Meltagun for taking on those nasty characters/vehicles. They
move pretty much every turn.
What does everbody else do with them?
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the role
of tactical squads..... . (1 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/29/2001
13:05
(10/30/2001 15:49)
>>
>> Well, I'd like to see how people use their Tactical (or similar)
squads! I use mine as mobile
jacks-of-all-trades. Since I play Black Templars, I give them
BP and CCW (since a bolt
pistol is identical to a bolter when moving), a power sword/fist
for extra punch in CC, and a
Meltagun for taking on those nasty characters/vehicles. They
move pretty much every turn.
What does everbody else do with them?
++++ Greetings Brother!
The tactical squad is one of the most flexible units in our army.
Typically we send out full ten
man tac squads, armed with a flamer and a missle launcher, veteran
serg w/power weapon,
the squad is mounted in a rhino. Sometimes other gear is taken
but this is typical.
The mounted tac squad can move up quickly to put the squad into
a position to provide
support fire for other units, massed bolter fire is a fine thing,
the missile launcher can affect
infantry as well as being a threat to vehicles. If the rhino
is destroyed the unit can remain in
place as a firebase.
In the assault role the rhino can drive up and deploy the tac
squad - they fire (the flamer is
excellent at reducing the enemy numbers - though you must be
careful to intentionally miss one
of the front people so your firing does not result in enemy survivors
being too far away to
assault! But driving up, deploying/firing/assaulting is another
fine use of our tactical squads.
Naturally they are not as effective as our dedicated assault
squads, so assaults of this fashion
are most effective if reinforced (ex. another rhino following
behind, a simultaneous assault
adjacent by scouts, heavy support fire to adjacent units)
Basically the tactical squad is the foundation of the fire support
in my army, the purpose of
which is to reduce enemy units in general, and to provide vital
fire support of our assaulting
units. Vehicles help very much as well especially in the fire
support for assaulting units, but
tactical squads are the foundation upon which everything else
is built, at least in my armies.
Glory to the Emperor and Sanguinius ~ Brother Edward
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EMPEROR PRAISE BROTHER EDWARD!!! . (0 Replies). Turpin[]. 10/30/2001 15:49
(10/30/2001 15:49)
Brother Edward is exactly right!! Tactical squads. Too many Marine
players field them simply
because they have to and rely on the other stuff to win battles.
It's too bad really and I think
shows poor generalship. It's an injustice when Marine Tac Squads
are overlooked in favor of
Assault Marines, for example, because then the value of the Tac
Marine is not realized and the
game becomes one based on numbers and rolling mass dice in assault
rather than committing
the Tac Troopers who excel in all roles.
Seriously- throw out the assault squad and get 2 Tac Squads instead
and see how mush more
flexibility a Marine Army has.
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RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? . (0 Replies).
RaisedFist[]. 10/26/2001 14:32 (10/26/2001 14:32)
>> Greetings Battle Brothers!
>>
>> If there were a great seminar on Space Marine Tactics, with
members of every chapter
present - what topics would you like to see discussed?
>>
>> I'm looking forward to hearing from ALL the chapters!
>>
>> Glory forever to the Emperor ~ Brother Edward
Hail Brothers! As a representen of the all might Space Wolfs Chapter
i bring bad news my
friends.....their is a big conspiracy of chees with all of our
ennemis...we should think a new
weapon (or maybe just some mice kind of bullet), a new armor(cheese
proof) this is urgent for
all human kind! enperor will prevail
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RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? . (2 Replies). Bob
Long[]. 10/26/2001 14:36 (10/29/2001 0:27)
>> If there were a great seminar on Space Marine Tactics, with
members of every chapter
present - what topics would you like to see discussed?
Why we can't all live together in peace and harmony?
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your no
space marine commander! (NT) . (1 Replies). darkarchon[]. 10/27/2001 11:12
(10/29/2001
0:27)
No Text
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Bloody oath . (0 Replies). Larke[]. 10/29/2001 0:27 (10/29/2001 0:27)
>> No Text
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The Dark angels chapter joins the
discussion. . (3 Replies). TzeentchHorror[]. 10/26/2001 14:42
(10/29/2001 13:55)
: :A robed figure steps forward onto the dias and proposes discussion
on Terminator squad
tactics: :
Tell, brothers how need we equip our Deathwing in this dire time?
How may this aide us
against alien threats?
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RE: The
Dark angels chapter joins the discussion. . (1 Replies). Spacer[]. 10/26/2001
18:23
(10/27/2001 20:45)
>> : :A robed figure steps forward onto the dias and proposes
discussion on Terminator
squad tactics: :
>>
>> Tell, brothers how need we equip our Deathwing in this dire
time? How may this aide us
against alien threats?
By giving them wol tail tailism, charms, wolf tooth necklace and
frost blades.
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Say something constructive, heretic! (NT) . (0 Replies). TzeentchHorror[].
10/27/2001 20:45
(10/27/2001 20:45)
No Text
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The Deathwing
. (0 Replies). khirareq[]. 10/29/2001 13:55 (10/29/2001 13:55)
>> : :A robed figure steps forward onto the dias and proposes
discussion on Terminator
squad tactics: :
>>
>> Tell, brothers how need we equip our Deathwing in this dire
time? How may this aide us
against alien threats?
There are as many different configurations for Deathwing as there
are enemies in the imperium.
One of the advantages of fielding a squad of Deathwing is the
ability to field heavy weapons in
assault squads, and assault weapons in tactical squads. A few
of my company's favorite
configurations follow...
For killing Tyranids, I find that a Tactical Deathwing squad is
very helpful. 2 Tacical termies
and a Sergeant, plus 2 Heavy Weapons (I prefer Cyclones, though
Assault Cannons are also
excellent) form a good mobile firebase that is capable of taking
out big and little bugs in Close
Combat or at range. If you are facing fast-moving big bugs, consider
adding thunder hammer
termies to stun them while the rest of your squad beats them
down.
Against Eldar (both Light and Dark), your Deathwing should be
equipped with Assault
Cannons. These excellant weapons can make short work of Eldar
troops and vehicles alike. If
you use Deathwing against Eldar, deploy carefully - their weapons
will make penetrate any
armor, even ours.
It is also inadvisable to use Deathwing against Orks. Their choppas
make Terminator armor
no more useful than scout armor. If the Deathwing are deployed
against Orks, try to keep
them away from choppa or burna armed troops, and use them instead
against shoota boys,
bikes and other troops not specially armed for close combat.
This will not be an easy
objective to acheive.
Even assault-oriented Deathwing configurations should not be without
heavy weapons. Put a
pair of heavy flamers in your Assault Deathwing squad - you'll
be pleased with the results!
I hope you find these insights helpful.
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RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? . (19 Replies).
Kuljoe14[]. 10/26/2001 19:17 (10/31/2001 1:30)
>> Greetings Battle Brothers!
>>
>> If there were a great seminar on Space Marine Tactics, with
members of every chapter
present - what topics would you like to see discussed?
>>
>> I'm looking forward to hearing from ALL the chapters!
>>
>> Glory forever to the Emperor ~ Brother Edward
I would like to see tank tactics, especially rhinos. Also dreadnoughts,
b/c ive seen it earne its
points only once since I bought it.
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Tactica:
Dreadnoughts . (18 Replies). Ventyr[]. 10/27/2001 16:54 (10/31/2001 1:30)
Dreadnoughts: How to use them and why.
Dreadnought(s) are a must to any shooting orientated Space Marine
army. They are relatively
cheap (compared to Dev squads), pretty survivable, they are the
only usable Elite choice (as
termies suck, and veterans are essentially expensive tactical/assault
marines), they don't take
your essential HV support choices and most importantly they are
mobile.
When you equip your dreadnought always upgrade the CCW into missile
launcher.
Why?
because you get another Heavy weapon for only 10pts. and you
can move and still shoot both
of them. And let's face the fact that SM dreadnoughts are not
any good in HtH with or without
power weapons. With 2 attacks and ws 4 it takes more than the
whole game (usually around
6 turns) to kill a ten man squad of anything that has ws4. Not
very good. So rather take the
missile launcher.
Extra armor is also worth taking. You can go hiding behind cover
for the following turn, if
"crew stunned/shaken" result occurs, and emerge fully functional
next turn.
Weapon choices: the missile launcher in other arm and to other
either plasma cannon or
lascannon.
Why?
Because Plasmacannon is the best all round anti-anything weapon
in SM arsenal, and in case
of dread you don't have to worry about overheating. It kills
any troops with ease and it is a
template weapon. It is also effective against any but the heaviest
armor.
Lascannon is the rational option for a tank hunting drednought
as it is the best anti tank
weapon awailable for SM forces.
The missile launcher goes well with both, as it can fire either
Frag or Krak round depending
on the situation at hand.
Other weapons available just aren't as good as those mentioned
above and thus are not worth
taking.
How to use Dreads in games:
If you don't have to go for a objective or capture table quarters,
stay back with the rest of you
shooting units and move only to get better LOS. Then just let
fly with your 2 HV weapons. If
possible, use cover to protect your dread from enemy fire.
In dense terrain you can also try to use cover to block enemy
Heavy weapon squads LOS to
your dread, while being able to fire at different targets that
are less likely to harm the dread.
Dreads can also be used to tie up enemy hth squads. If enemy gets
too close to your more
vulnerable troops, first shoot them and then assault with the
dread. most troops can't harm the
dread in hth and are rendered useless for the rest of the game
(watch out for those power fists
or thunder hammers though!)
With these tactics I have used my Dreads with great succes. I
like to have at least 1 of them.
usually 2 or 3.
Comments/costructive critic/questions are welcome and I'm willing
to answer them.
-Ventyr-
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Excellent essay Brother - one question though... . (15 Replies).
BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/27/2001 17:36 (10/31/2001 1:30)
Your observations and assessments on the dreadnoughts match well
with my own
experiences. Thank you for explaining things so well :-)
One thing though - you mentioned terminators as being a poor elite
choice in a fire support
role, can you go into that a little more? I've not used them
often in that role, but the few
occassions I have I've been pleased with their performance. I
used a 6 man term squad with
cyclone missile launcher and another with an assault cannon -
their general poor mobility is a
factor, but once in the open I've found them able to deliver
a decent amount of suppressing
fire, especially when working with other units. Also, I've considered
the idea (on several
occassions) of teleporting them in somewhat behind enemy lines
to act as a hard to kill
wandering firebase (though for one reason or another I've actually
never done this). So if you
could go into your thoughts on the role of termies in fire support
I'd be really interested.
Thanks!
Glory to the Emperor ~ Brother Edward
PS. On another similar note - I've found Assault Terminators in
a landraider crusader are a
wonderfully powerful unit if their assault is supported :-)
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Terminators . (11 Replies). Ventyr[]. 10/28/2001 14:41 (10/30/2001 8:24)
I don't really imply that terminators are so bad, I just wanted
to raise questions and comments
about the subject. And from here I can smoothly go to the following
topic:
Tactical Dreadnought Armour, more commonly called terminator armour:
Why I don't like
them.
At first look, they seem awesome. 2+/5+inv. save, powerfists,
storm bolters and heavy
weapons they can fire on the move.
Well, all these things are great, but the real downfall of terminators
is their too high point cost.
Teminators role on the battlefield:
Their equipment makes them mobile, (supposedly) survivable short
ranged anti-infantry fire
teams.
They are best equipped with 2 assault cannons, because they most
propably will newer get
close enough to use heavy flamers and I wouldn't put missile
launchers on terminator squads,
because then either the MLs long range is not used for advantage,
or the storm bolters are
wasted. MLs are better used in tactical or devastator squads.
Terminators don't fulfill their role well enough for their point
cost. If they want to use their
weaponry, they have to move close to the enemy and thus expose
them to enemy fire. Even
bolters and other light weapons often reduce their already few
numbers (i'm not very lucky
with the dice) and they usually draw the attention of all AP
2 weapons in opponents army. So
regarless of their save, they usually die pretty quickly. Too
quickly if you consider that a squad
of 5 costs 250pts.
If you consider what else you could get with all those point's,
you'll see what I mean.
With the cost of one terminator you can get 3 tactical marines
(well almost. 3pts short) 3
tactical marines shoot 3 times in one turn, where terminator
shoots only 2 times.
To kill one terminator you have to score an average of 6 wounds,
but to kill 3 tac marines you
need to score an average of 9 wounds. One lascannon shot can
easily take out a terminator,
but it takes three lascannon shots to take out those tac marines.
So tacticals shoot more, and can take more enemy fire before
going down. Tacticals can get a
heavy and a special weapon, where terminators get two heavies,
so thats pretty even.
Terminators are better at hth, but with their 6" move they most
propably never get there.
Terminators also use up elite choices, which should be used to
get dreadnoughts (which are
cheeper and better) All those precious points are better invested
on something more feasible.
About assault termies I don't really know, as I haven't really
used them, but they are insanely
expensive because they need to buy that landraider. squad of
5 costs around 500pts. can they
really kill one third of enemy army? (in 1500pts. game) I doubt
it. They can't even pursue and
thus really need to physically hack down all their opponents
they are going to kill.
Deep striking terminators might work on some cases, but their
appearance is too random for
my taste (...and my dice rolling. they usually turn up when the
battle is already over)
Dark Angel Deathwing terminators are the wors kind of waste. they
cost even more than
reqular termies (+10pts or something?) and only get the fearless
rule which is actually a
disadvantage, as they can't use the classic voluntarily-fall-back-shoot-and-assault-again
tactic.
Salamander termies are cheaper (only 5pts. though), but only
get heavy flamers as heavies.
So because of all those things mentioned above, I don't use terminators.
Again questions and comments are welcome.
Captain Arianus
5th. battle company
Knights Templar
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RE: Terminators . (0 Replies). thedisposableman[]. 10/28/2001 15:42 (10/28/2001
15:42)
You make very good points, I think that from now on I'll go for
3 dreadnoughts in place of
that 1 expensive termie squad
>> I don't really imply that terminators are so bad, I just wanted
to raise questions and
comments about the subject. And from here I can smoothly go to
the following topic:
>>
>> Tactical Dreadnought Armour, more commonly called terminator
armour: Why I don't like
them.
>>
>> At first look, they seem awesome. 2+/5+inv. save, powerfists,
storm bolters and heavy
weapons they can fire on the move.
>> Well, all these things are great, but the real downfall of
terminators is their too high point
cost.
>>
>> Teminators role on the battlefield:
>> Their equipment makes them mobile, (supposedly) survivable
short ranged anti-infantry
fire teams.
>> They are best equipped with 2 assault cannons, because they
most propably will newer
get close enough to use heavy flamers and I wouldn't put missile
launchers on terminator
squads, because then either the MLs long range is not used for
advantage, or the storm
bolters are wasted. MLs are better used in tactical or devastator
squads.
>>
>> Terminators don't fulfill their role well enough for their
point cost. If they want to use their
weaponry, they have to move close to the enemy and thus expose
them to enemy fire. Even
bolters and other light weapons often reduce their already few
numbers (i'm not very lucky
with the dice) and they usually draw the attention of all AP
2 weapons in opponents army. So
regarless of their save, they usually die pretty quickly. Too
quickly if you consider that a squad
of 5 costs 250pts.
>>
>> If you consider what else you could get with all those point's,
you'll see what I mean.
>> With the cost of one terminator you can get 3 tactical marines
(well almost. 3pts short) 3
tactical marines shoot 3 times in one turn, where terminator
shoots only 2 times.
>> To kill one terminator you have to score an average of 6 wounds,
but to kill 3 tac marines
you need to score an average of 9 wounds. One lascannon shot
can easily take out a
terminator, but it takes three lascannon shots to take out those
tac marines.
>> So tacticals shoot more, and can take more enemy fire before
going down. Tacticals can
get a heavy and a special weapon, where terminators get two heavies,
so thats pretty even.
Terminators are better at hth, but with their 6" move they most
propably never get there.
Terminators also use up elite choices, which should be used to
get dreadnoughts (which are
cheeper and better) All those precious points are better invested
on something more feasible.
>>
>> About assault termies I don't really know, as I haven't really
used them, but they are
insanely expensive because they need to buy that landraider.
squad of 5 costs around 500pts.
can they really kill one third of enemy army? (in 1500pts. game)
I doubt it. They can't even
pursue and thus really need to physically hack down all their
opponents they are going to kill.
>>
>> Deep striking terminators might work on some cases, but their
appearance is too random
for my taste (...and my dice rolling. they usually turn up when
the battle is already over)
>>
>> Dark Angel Deathwing terminators are the wors kind of waste.
they cost even more than
reqular termies (+10pts or something?) and only get the fearless
rule which is actually a
disadvantage, as they can't use the classic voluntarily-fall-back-shoot-and-assault-again
tactic.
>> Salamander termies are cheaper (only 5pts. though), but only
get heavy flamers as heavies.
>>
>> So because of all those things mentioned above, I don't use
terminators.
>>
>> Again questions and comments are welcome.
>>
>> Captain Arianus
>> 5th. battle company
>> Knights Templar
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you asked about assault terminators... . (8 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[].
10/29/2001 12:11 (10/30/2001 8:24)
Yet another insightful discussion brother, thank you.
The many points you bring up are interesting, though the value
of the invulnerable saves and
the ability to deepstrike were not addressed in depth. After
reading your article I think that in
the future when I have a serious "fire support" role to be filled
I'll go with a devastator squad
(and take my chances with Black Rage). The devastators being
able to pour out both a great
deal of fire, and having up to ten wounds makes it a unit which
will require effort to kill.
On another note - you mentioned you had not had much experience
with assault terminators.
I'd like to recommend them HIGHLY. My example here does involve
the Death Company,
but much the same effect can be had in a codex army with a well
outfitted assault squad. the
example I give below was conducted successfully against a rebel
Imperial Guard garrison.
Take a LandRaider Crusader - put five assault terminators in there
(you can buy more, but
they are pricey and five is sufficient). Take a veteran sergeant
with lightning claws, and two
more assault terminators with lighting claws AND take two assault
terminators with thunder
hammers. The thunder hammers are great for fighting the most
powerful enemy model (if you
wound the enemy cannot attack the next turn - thus you can try
to attack for several turns with
fair chance of not being attacked back by their lead model).
The lightning claws naturally take
a great toll on the enemy unit as well. Now getting them into
assault is the job of the
Landraider w/ overcharged engine - this does the job perfectly
if your setup is good.
To add to the effect you need to have fire support units reducing
the enemy to one side of the
unit the terminators are going to assault, and in my case (the
last time I did this) I had my
Chaplain and Death Company assault the unit on the other side
of the unit which the
Terminators were about to assault (gotta love coordinated assaults!).
Now I should mention
that the Death Company assault did occur at the far end of the
enemy line (meaning there
were no other enemy units on the exposed DC flank - this is an
important factor.
So in this case the Assault termies hit the second to last unit
in the enemy line - and the
jumppack equipped DC hit the very last unit. The rest of the
army put fire onto the remaining
enemy units, and our scouts with CCW tied up some of the nearby
units who might have
responded.
The assault terminators are very capable of staying in a protracted
h2h engagement (aka they
are best suited to resisting counter attacks if they happen),
and the Death Company is very
capable of destroying the unit they hit quickly as welll AND
with their jumppacks they have
the best ability to come assist the terminators should they need
reinforcement OR they have
the mobility to threaten units which move toward the terminators
(the DC can jumppack over
the melee to engage them next turn).
But basically if you can land two assaults right next to each
other they can work together to
support each other - and by focusing the rest of your army's
firepower into support fire
(massed bolter fire, speeders w/multimeltas and rocket launchers
etc) you can have a serious
impact on the enemy.
Now granted not all assaults go so well - but with solid support
fire, and coordinated assault
the overall effect can be impressive. My advice is that if you
have never tried taking assault
terminators into combat in a LandRaider Crusader - I think you
should give it a whirl, and do
not judge their effectiveness until you see tham actually hit
the enemy lines - the damage they
can wreak is impressive.
constructive criticism and comments/concerns are welcome.
Glory to the Emperor and Sanguinius ~ Brother Edward
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RE: you asked about assault terminators... . (2 Replies). SirGore[]. 10/29/2001
12:49
(10/29/2001 15:01)
Brother Edward,
I am a new pup of the Glorious Space Wolves Chapter so I must
apologize if my questions
are a bit basic.
Life on Fenris prior to joining the Wolves taught me to be frugal,
and so I instinctively avoid
expensive units. However, one of the advantages of Space Wolf
force organization is that I
may buy Wolf Guard members to lead my various troops of Blood
Claws, Grey Hunters and
Scouts. This leads me to a set of questions following the excellent
analysis I have read:
Is it worth taking Wolf Guard in Tactical Dreadnaught Armour to
lead units? (The Wolves are
allowed to have mixed Armour in a unit)
I was considering taking a Cyclone with krack missiles as the
Wolf Guard to accompany my
Wolf Scouts when they infiltrate. Do you feel this is wise? Can
you suggest another
"Tank-Killing option"?
For Russ and the Emperor,
Ivar Wulfenhardt
>> Yet another insightful discussion brother, thank you.
>>
>> The many points you bring up are interesting, though the value
of the invulnerable saves
and the ability to deepstrike were not addressed in depth. After
reading your article I think
that in the future when I have a serious "fire support" role
to be filled I'll go with a devastator
squad (and take my chances with Black Rage). The devastators
being able to pour out both a
great deal of fire, and having up to ten wounds makes it a unit
which will require effort to kill.
>>
>> On another note - you mentioned you had not had much experience
with assault
terminators. I'd like to recommend them HIGHLY. My example here
does involve the Death
Company, but much the same effect can be had in a codex army
with a well outfitted assault
squad. the example I give below was conducted successfully against
a rebel Imperial Guard
garrison.
>>
>> Take a LandRaider Crusader - put five assault terminators
in there (you can buy more, but
they are pricey and five is sufficient). Take a veteran sergeant
with lightning claws, and two
more assault terminators with lighting claws AND take two assault
terminators with thunder
hammers. The thunder hammers are great for fighting the most
powerful enemy model (if you
wound the enemy cannot attack the next turn - thus you can try
to attack for several turns with
fair chance of not being attacked back by their lead model).
The lightning claws naturally take
a great toll on the enemy unit as well. Now getting them into
assault is the job of the
Landraider w/ overcharged engine - this does the job perfectly
if your setup is good.
>>
>> To add to the effect you need to have fire support units reducing
the enemy to one side of
the unit the terminators are going to assault, and in my case
(the last time I did this) I had my
Chaplain and Death Company assault the unit on the other side
of the unit which the
Terminators were about to assault (gotta love coordinated assaults!).
Now I should mention
that the Death Company assault did occur at the far end of the
enemy line (meaning there
were no other enemy units on the exposed DC flank - this is an
important factor.
>>
>> So in this case the Assault termies hit the second to last
unit in the enemy line - and the
jumppack equipped DC hit the very last unit. The rest of the
army put fire onto the remaining
enemy units, and our scouts with CCW tied up some of the nearby
units who might have
responded.
>>
>> The assault terminators are very capable of staying in a protracted
h2h engagement (aka
they are best suited to resisting counter attacks if they happen),
and the Death Company is
very capable of destroying the unit they hit quickly as welll
AND with their jumppacks they
have the best ability to come assist the terminators should they
need reinforcement OR they
have the mobility to threaten units which move toward the terminators
(the DC can jumppack
over the melee to engage them next turn).
>>
>> But basically if you can land two assaults right next to each
other they can work together
to support each other - and by focusing the rest of your army's
firepower into support fire
(massed bolter fire, speeders w/multimeltas and rocket launchers
etc) you can have a serious
impact on the enemy.
>>
>> Now granted not all assaults go so well - but with solid support
fire, and coordinated
assault the overall effect can be impressive. My advice is that
if you have never tried taking
assault terminators into combat in a LandRaider Crusader - I
think you should give it a whirl,
and do not judge their effectiveness until you see tham actually
hit the enemy lines - the
damage they can wreak is impressive.
>>
>> constructive criticism and comments/concerns are welcome.
>>
>> Glory to the Emperor and Sanguinius ~ Brother Edward
Reply
Back To Thread Navigation
RE: RE: you asked about assault terminators... . (0 Replies). visigoth[].
10/29/2001
14:31 (10/29/2001 14:31)
>> Brother Edward,
>>
>> I am a new pup of the Glorious Space Wolves Chapter so I must
apologize if my
questions are a bit basic.
>>
>> Life on Fenris prior to joining the Wolves taught me to be
frugal, and so I instinctively
avoid expensive units. However, one of the advantages of Space
Wolf force organization is
that I may buy Wolf Guard members to lead my various troops of
Blood Claws, Grey
Hunters and Scouts. This leads me to a set of questions following
the excellent analysis I have
read:
>>
>> Is it worth taking Wolf Guard in Tactical Dreadnaught Armour
to lead units? (The Wolves
are allowed to have mixed Armour in a unit)
>>
>> I was considering taking a Cyclone with krack missiles as
the Wolf Guard to accompany
my Wolf Scouts when they infiltrate. Do you feel this is wise?
Can you suggest another
"Tank-Killing option"?
>>
>>
>> For Russ and the Emperor,
>>
>> Ivar Wulfenhardt
>>
++greetings from a grizzled long fang my brother...
in the white dwarf 'get you by' pre-codex article for the wolves,
you werent allowed to use a
terminator in an infiltrating unit...this wasnt put in the codex,
but it just doesnt 'feel' right to do
so. a terminator would be unable to creep around quietly. when
i add a wolf guard to my
scouts to help bust up tanks, i usually have him in power armor
and equip him with a thunder
hammer and storm shield, then even if he doesnt destroy the tank,
its unable to move or fire
the next turn, and it fits into the feel of an infiltrating unit.
plus the meltabombs that the scouts
have should do a number on them.
also giving him a wolf tooth necklace will give him a good chance
of taking out any
'uber-characters' sent to deal with them.
hope this helps.
thorfinn silvermane++
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We need to hear from a WolfLord! . (0 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[].
10/29/2001 15:01 (10/29/2001 15:01)
Greetings Battle Brother!
I have but recently begun to study the ways of our glorious brothers
the Space Wolves, and
feel I am not well enough informed to comment much on the questions
you have raised here.
What I can say is that Blood Angels have used assault terminators
to great effect in assaulting
the enemy (given that the assaults must be supported by support
fire, and ideally additionaly
assaulting units).
Try these tactics sometime when you face a troop heavy army and
you may find the effect
useful.
Remember though that when fighting aliens like the foul Eldar
that many of their weapons are
quite effective against our armors - against such firepower a
combination of many troop
choices and as many basic assault personel as we can bring (and
deepstrike ideally) will win
the day. Terminators are great for being thrown against the strongest
units, and for wading
through the ranks of enemy troops dispensing the Emperor's mercies
left and right :-)
I hope we may hear from a Wolf Lord soon to answer your questions!
Glory to the Emperor, Sanguinius and Russ ~ Brother Edward
>> Brother Edward,
>>
>> I am a new pup of the Glorious Space Wolves Chapter so I must
apologize if my
questions are a bit basic.
>>
>> Life on Fenris prior to joining the Wolves taught me to be
frugal, and so I instinctively
avoid expensive units. However, one of the advantages of Space
Wolf force organization is
that I may buy Wolf Guard members to lead my various troops of
Blood Claws, Grey
Hunters and Scouts. This leads me to a set of questions following
the excellent analysis I have
read:
>>
>> Is it worth taking Wolf Guard in Tactical Dreadnaught Armour
to lead units? (The Wolves
are allowed to have mixed Armour in a unit)
>>
>> I was considering taking a Cyclone with krack missiles as
the Wolf Guard to accompany
my Wolf Scouts when they infiltrate. Do you feel this is wise?
Can you suggest another
"Tank-Killing option"?
>>
>>
>> For Russ and the Emperor,
>>
>> Ivar Wulfenhardt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> Yet another insightful discussion brother, thank you.
>> >>
>> >> The many points you bring up are interesting, though the
value of the invulnerable saves
and the ability to deepstrike were not addressed in depth. After
reading your article I think
that in the future when I have a serious "fire support" role
to be filled I'll go with a devastator
squad (and take my chances with Black Rage). The devastators
being able to pour out both a
great deal of fire, and having up to ten wounds makes it a unit
which will require effort to kill.
>> >>
>> >> On another note - you mentioned you had not had much experience
with assault
terminators. I'd like to recommend them HIGHLY. My example here
does involve the Death
Company, but much the same effect can be had in a codex army
with a well outfitted assault
squad. the example I give below was conducted successfully against
a rebel Imperial Guard
garrison.
>> >>
>> >> Take a LandRaider Crusader - put five assault terminators
in there (you can buy more,
but they are pricey and five is sufficient). Take a veteran sergeant
with lightning claws, and two
more assault terminators with lighting claws AND take two assault
terminators with thunder
hammers. The thunder hammers are great for fighting the most
powerful enemy model (if you
wound the enemy cannot attack the next turn - thus you can try
to attack for several turns with
fair chance of not being attacked back by their lead model).
The lightning claws naturally take
a great toll on the enemy unit as well. Now getting them into
assault is the job of the
Landraider w/ overcharged engine - this does the job perfectly
if your setup is good.
>> >>
>> >> To add to the effect you need to have fire support units
reducing the enemy to one side
of the unit the terminators are going to assault, and in my case
(the last time I did this) I had
my Chaplain and Death Company assault the unit on the other side
of the unit which the
Terminators were about to assault (gotta love coordinated assaults!).
Now I should mention
that the Death Company assault did occur at the far end of the
enemy line (meaning there
were no other enemy units on the exposed DC flank - this is an
important factor.
>> >>
>> >> So in this case the Assault termies hit the second to last
unit in the enemy line - and the
jumppack equipped DC hit the very last unit. The rest of the
army put fire onto the remaining
enemy units, and our scouts with CCW tied up some of the nearby
units who might have
responded.
>> >>
>> >> The assault terminators are very capable of staying in
a protracted h2h engagement
(aka they are best suited to resisting counter attacks if they
happen), and the Death Company
is very capable of destroying the unit they hit quickly as welll
AND with their jumppacks they
have the best ability to come assist the terminators should they
need reinforcement OR they
have the mobility to threaten units which move toward the terminators
(the DC can jumppack
over the melee to engage them next turn).
>> >>
>> >> But basically if you can land two assaults right next to
each other they can work
together to support each other - and by focusing the rest of
your army's firepower into
support fire (massed bolter fire, speeders w/multimeltas and
rocket launchers etc) you can
have a serious impact on the enemy.
>> >>
>> >> Now granted not all assaults go so well - but with solid
support fire, and coordinated
assault the overall effect can be impressive. My advice is that
if you have never tried taking
assault terminators into combat in a LandRaider Crusader - I
think you should give it a whirl,
and do not judge their effectiveness until you see tham actually
hit the enemy lines - the
damage they can wreak is impressive.
>> >>
>> >> constructive criticism and comments/concerns are welcome.
>> >>
>> >> Glory to the Emperor and Sanguinius ~ Brother Edward
Reply
Back To Thread Navigation
RE: you asked about assault terminators... . (4 Replies). Ventyr[]. 10/29/2001
13:23
(10/30/2001 8:24)
Yes, I have used assault terminators only once or twice, if I
remember correctly, so I can't
really comment on their effectiveness on battlefield. The point
cost of such a unit is just so
scary. They really have to kick ass to earn their points back,
and in shooting orientated armies
(that I usually field) you just can't invest that many points
on assault troops. I often field one 5
man squad of assault marines with veteran sergeant and chaplain
as my only hth unit. Used
mainly on counter attacking enemy hth units. Most of the killing
is done as it should (we're in
the future U know =)), by shooting
As I mentioned in my terminator post, I don't like them. It feels
kind of like putting all your
eggs in one basket and since i'm very unlucky with the dice,
I tend to fail those 2+ saves far
too often.
I like to have numerous models in my armies, because they shoot
more, they can take more
enemy fire and more squads at your command means wider tactical
options available. I usually
field some 40+ marines in 1500pts. game. (and big armies look
better. I just love the looks of
mk7 power armor)
Then about couple of things you said:
As far as I know Landraiders can't have owercharged engines.
Those are fitted to BA Rhinos
and Razorbacks only.
And about using jump packs to move over hth. models cannot jump
over enemy models, so I
doubt that they can move over hth either.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
Captain Arianus
5th company
Knights Templar
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yikes! what have my mechanics been doing! . (3 Replies).
BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/29/2001 14:43 (10/30/2001 8:24)
Hello there!
Well by crykie you're right about the overcharged engines on the
crusader - my bad! I
shudder to think how many well intentioned BA players made the
same oversight that I did in
thinking that the overcharged engine option applied across the
spectrum of our vehicles - it's
the little things that get you!
>> And about using jump packs to move over hth. models cannot
jump over enemy models,
so I doubt that they can move over hth either.
>> Correct me if i'm wrong.
and yes this is true as well - though with a movement of twelve
inches you have ample
opportunity to jump to one side, and still be within six inches
for an effective charge.
With regards to your use of assault terminators as a counter charge
unit, let me know how that
works for you - at a glance (having never used them in that role
before) it seems a pricy
countercharge unit. The value which I saw in the assault terminators
was much more on the
offensive side of things because they could inflict so much damage
and were tough enough to
hang in the thick of the fight (the heart of the assault) as
the rest of our assault units assault
nearby, and the rest of the army does what you like best - shoot
:-)
Give it a try sometime if you haven't, and I'll go try them in
a counterassault role :-)
happy gaming! ~ Brother Edward
>> Yes, I have used assault terminators only once or twice, if
I remember correctly, so I can't
really comment on their effectiveness on battlefield. The point
cost of such a unit is just so
scary. They really have to kick ass to earn their points back,
and in shooting orientated armies
(that I usually field) you just can't invest that many points
on assault troops. I often field one 5
man squad of assault marines with veteran sergeant and chaplain
as my only hth unit. Used
mainly on counter attacking enemy hth units. Most of the killing
is done as it should (we're in
the future U know =)), by shooting
>>
>> As I mentioned in my terminator post, I don't like them. It
feels kind of like putting all your
eggs in one basket and since i'm very unlucky with the dice,
I tend to fail those 2+ saves far
too often.
>> I like to have numerous models in my armies, because they
shoot more, they can take
more enemy fire and more squads at your command means wider tactical
options available. I
usually field some 40+ marines in 1500pts. game. (and big armies
look better. I just love the
looks of mk7 power armor)
>>
>> Then about couple of things you said:
>> As far as I know Landraiders can't have owercharged engines.
Those are fitted to BA
Rhinos and Razorbacks only.
>> And about using jump packs to move over hth. models cannot
jump over enemy models,
so I doubt that they can move over hth either.
>> Correct me if i'm wrong.
>>
>> Captain Arianus
>> 5th company
>> Knights Templar
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Now you misunderstood a bit =) . (2 Replies). Ventyr[]. 10/29/2001 15:42
(10/30/2001
8:24)
>> With regards to your use of assault terminators as a counter
charge unit, let me know how
that works for you - at a glance (having never used them in that
role before) it seems a pricy
countercharge unit. The value which I saw in the assault terminators
was much more on the
offensive side of things because they could inflict so much damage
and were tough enough to
hang in the thick of the fight (the heart of the assault) as
the rest of our assault units assault
nearby, and the rest of the army does what you like best - shoot
:-)
Now you misred me. I didn't say that I use assault TERMINATORS
as a counter attack unit,
I said that I use assault MARINES. Those power armored guys with
jump packs, pistols and
swords U know =)
Now that would be a complete waste of points to keep assault termies
back waiting for a
change to counter charge =)
Assault marines, the ones I use, work wery well on counter attacking
enemy hth units, and are
cheap enough to be kept back, waiting for the enemy to come close
enough (unlike
terminators).
I shoot 'till the last moment and depending on the situation
I either take the charge with
tacticals and join in with the assault marines next turn, or,
earlier on, move to intercept with the
assault marines.
Tacticals and devastators deployed in a close box formation (3"
apart from each other to
avoid consolidation) can take most enemy assaulters by themselves
too. After the assault, the
charged unit voluntarily falls back on opponents turn and automatically
regroups due to
ATSKNF. Then on your own turn you happily shoot down the sweeping
enemies with rapid
firing bolters, plasmaguns and heavies from dev squad(s) and/or
dreadnoughts or anything else
nearby.
Tried and proved. Works against any but the most toughest assault
groups. And failing that, I
have that assault squad to give a hand if need be.
Captain Arianus
5th company
Knights Templar
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now THAT makes a lot more sense :-) . (0 Replies).
BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/29/2001 22:41 (10/29/2001 22:41)
apparently my implant that lets me go for days without sleep
is on the blink again, better go
check with the tech priests about this sleepy brain of mine before
I misread something
important! let's see here throw grenade then press button...
no that doesn't quite seem right
somehow, press button then place back into storage box... no
no, something still wrong.... :-)
until next time!
~ Brother Edward
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RE: Now you misunderstood a bit =) . (0 Replies).
sinngrin[grizgrin@hotmail.com]. 10/30/2001 8:24 (10/30/2001 8:24)
as far as the voluntary fall back, I thought it was a voluntary
rule. Can you do that? Do you
have to have opponents consent? I am a fairly effective BA player,
my opponents would
never let me do that.
-sinngrin
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RE: Terminators . (0 Replies). erdagon[]. 10/29/2001 13:20 (10/29/2001
13:20)
>> With the cost of one terminator you can get 3 tactical marines
(well almost. 3pts short) 3
tactical marines shoot 3 times in one turn, where terminator
shoots only 2 times.
>> To kill one terminator you have to score an average of 6 wounds,
but to kill 3 tac marines
you need to score an average of 9 wounds. One lascannon shot
can easily take out a
terminator, but it takes three lascannon shots to take out those
tac marines.
>> So tacticals shoot more, and can take more enemy fire before
going down. Tacticals can
get a heavy and a special weapon, where terminators get two heavies,
so thats pretty even.
Terminators are better at hth, but with their 6" move they most
propably never get there.
Terminators also use up elite choices, which should be used to
get dreadnoughts (which are
cheeper and better) All those precious points are better invested
on something more feasible.
Hmmmm , I don't know if you're completely right . It's true what
you say that it take three LC
to take down your three tac marines , but they get wasted as
fast as a termie when a Plasma
Cannon is used instead of a LC and then your termies still have
their 5+inv save which your
tac marines don't get . Ok , they cost alot (especially for a
DA player) but then again, you
have to consider that they can take a bigger punch than your
average Marine . I also see that
you talk about "average" wounds it takes to take down a Termie
or a Tac . Just to say that I
don't really believe in "average" , well not on the battle field
anyway . I think using things like
"average wounding and hitting" is something that can't be used
to compare two units . Your
XP with those two might completely differ from somebody elses
POV . For the one , termies
might suck while for somebody else they might be a great blessing
. Yet , it's still good to see
that somebody is able to fully state why he thinks this or that
unit sucks to his Point Of View .
Most people just say that some units sucks because they don't
like the look or they don't
know why . Anyway , good luck and happy gaming Brother .
Erdagon Faldan
Dark Angels commander
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RE: Excellent essay Brother - one question though... . (2 Replies). castellanlazarus[].
10/30/2001 6:09 (10/31/2001 1:30)
you mentioned terminators as being a poor elite choice in a fire
support role, I've not used
them often in that role, but the few occassions I have I've been
pleased with their
performance.
I must admit the same(from a fire support role) personally I,ve
not had great luck in h2h, but in
shooting, well that many bolter shots and a heavy weap. or two,
its been pretty effective so
far. The simple fact that they can lay down a withering hail
of fire on the move is good.
but once in the open I've found them able to deliver a decent
amount of suppressing fire,
especially when working with other units. Also, I've considered
the idea (on several
occassions) of teleporting them in somewhat behind enemy lines
to act as a hard to kill
wandering firebase
Great Idea, and yes, I have never actually done it. Too many tactics,
not enough wars!!
>> PS. On another similar note - I've found Assault Terminators
in a landraider crusader are a
wonderfully powerful unit if their assault is supported :-)
the sheer fear of the great machine is enough to weaken the heretics,
brother. I have a
crusader, but the fact thet you can fit fifteen guys in there
has meant that I have yet to use it as
my termie taxi. I was told of a horrid tactic for the crusader;
Using two LRC drive through the enemy front line, firing all
the way, release the troops behind
enemy lines (rules for tank shock help this greatly- if you remember
there are actually rules for
it) and then use the LRC as a wandering fire base. When all the
enemy troops break, guess
whose in line of retreat?
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Crusader tactics . (1 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/30/2001 10:10
(10/31/2001
1:30)
earlier you wrote:
>> the sheer fear of the great machine is enough to weaken the
heretics, brother. I have a
crusader, but the fact thet you can fit fifteen guys in there
has meant that I have yet to use it as
my termie taxi. I was told of a horrid tactic for the crusader;
>> Using two LRC drive through the enemy front line, firing all
the way, release the troops
behind enemy lines (rules for tank shock help this greatly- if
you remember there are actually
rules for it) and then use the LRC as a wandering fire base.
When all the enemy troops break,
guess whose in line of retreat?
++++ interesting tactics brother, against which armies have you
successfully done this?
looking forward to hearing the gory details :-)
~ Brother Edward
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RE: Crusader tactics . (0 Replies). castellanlazarus[]. 10/31/2001 1:30
(10/31/2001 1:30)
>> ++++ interesting tactics brother, against which armies have
you successfully done this?
>>
>> looking forward to hearing the gory details :-)
>> ~ Brother Edward
Unfortunately, I must admit brother it is an untried speculation.
Sounds good though I am yet
to put it in effect. I do not have two Land Raiders, so I will
use a rhino as the other
linebreaker and see how that goes. As long as I have support
in the assault from the front of
enemy lines I believe it has a chance. It would go one of two
ways and as such would be quite
a risky tactic.1) it would work really well (which means too
well, and cries of cheese and
beardy goodness would be heard for miles) or 2) not at all, tanks
get stuffed and assault
slowly breaks up into discordia.If the tanks dont make it all
the way there: abandon assault
plan, both vehicles need to support each other, or one will be
easily overwhelmed
These reasons are why I havent yet used it, and the lack of a
appropriate battle.
Really I am thinking about it in regards to the renegade IG garrison
that I fight often, and
maybe the Red Corsair heretic pirates I come into contact with.
The Eldar Pirates would be
way to mobile to consider effecting this plan.
Any one out there with enough b@lls to try it for me?
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RE: Tactica: Dreadnoughts . (0 Replies). thedisposableman[]. 10/28/2001
11:44 (10/28/2001 11:44)
Well met, though why do you say termies suck?
Let's look at terminators.
They can move and shoot heavy wepons, cyclone missile launchers,
which are extremely
useful. In close combat they are practically gods and they have
that great 2+/5+ invul. save.
I'm thinking about getting 2 dreadnoughts w/ plasma/missile launcher
and one with tl
lascannon/missile launcher
and also having a
8 man Deathwing Terminator squad w/ 5 chainfists and 2 cyclone
missile launchers
>> Dreadnoughts: How to use them and why.
>>
>> Dreadnought(s) are a must to any shooting orientated Space
Marine army. They are
relatively cheap (compared to Dev squads), pretty survivable,
they are the only usable Elite
choice (as termies suck, and veterans are essentially expensive
tactical/assault marines), they
don't take your essential HV support choices and most importantly
they are mobile.
>>
>> When you equip your dreadnought always upgrade the CCW into
missile launcher.
>> Why?
>> because you get another Heavy weapon for only 10pts. and you
can move and still shoot
both of them. And let's face the fact that SM dreadnoughts are
not any good in HtH with or
without power weapons. With 2 attacks and ws 4 it takes more
than the whole game (usually
around 6 turns) to kill a ten man squad of anything that has
ws4. Not very good. So rather
take the missile launcher.
>> Extra armor is also worth taking. You can go hiding behind
cover for the following turn, if
"crew stunned/shaken" result occurs, and emerge fully functional
next turn.
>>
>> Weapon choices: the missile launcher in other arm and to other
either plasma cannon or
lascannon.
>> Why?
>> Because Plasmacannon is the best all round anti-anything weapon
in SM arsenal, and in
case of dread you don't have to worry about overheating. It kills
any troops with ease and it is
a template weapon. It is also effective against any but the heaviest
armor.
>> Lascannon is the rational option for a tank hunting drednought
as it is the best anti tank
weapon awailable for SM forces.
>> The missile launcher goes well with both, as it can fire either
Frag or Krak round
depending on the situation at hand.
>> Other weapons available just aren't as good as those mentioned
above and thus are not
worth taking.
>>
>> How to use Dreads in games:
>> If you don't have to go for a objective or capture table quarters,
stay back with the rest of
you shooting units and move only to get better LOS. Then just
let fly with your 2 HV
weapons. If possible, use cover to protect your dread from enemy
fire.
>> In dense terrain you can also try to use cover to block enemy
Heavy weapon squads LOS
to your dread, while being able to fire at different targets
that are less likely to harm the dread.
>>
>> Dreads can also be used to tie up enemy hth squads. If enemy
gets too close to your more
vulnerable troops, first shoot them and then assault with the
dread. most troops can't harm the
dread in hth and are rendered useless for the rest of the game
(watch out for those power fists
or thunder hammers though!)
>>
>> With these tactics I have used my Dreads with great succes.
I like to have at least 1 of
them. usually 2 or 3.
>>
>> Comments/costructive critic/questions are welcome and I'm
willing to answer them.
>>
>> -Ventyr-
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RE: Tactica: Dreadnoughts . (0 Replies). t_ray[]. 10/30/2001 13:18 (10/30/2001
13:18)
>> Dreadnoughts: How to use them and why.
>>
>> Dreadnought(s) are a must to any shooting orientated Space
Marine army. They are
relatively cheap (compared to Dev squads), pretty survivable,
they are the only usable Elite
choice (as termies suck, and veterans are essentially expensive
tactical/assault marines), they
don't take your essential HV support choices and most importantly
they are mobile.
>>
>> When you equip your dreadnought always upgrade the CCW into
missile launcher.
>> Why?
>> because you get another Heavy weapon for only 10pts. and you
can move and still shoot
both of them. And let's face the fact that SM dreadnoughts are
not any good in HtH with or
without power weapons. With 2 attacks and ws 4 it takes more
than the whole game (usually
around 6 turns) to kill a ten man squad of anything that has
ws4. Not very good. So rather
take the missile launcher.
>> Extra armor is also worth taking. You can go hiding behind
cover for the following turn, if
"crew stunned/shaken" result occurs, and emerge fully functional
next turn.
>>
>> Weapon choices: the missile launcher in other arm and to other
either plasma cannon or
lascannon.
>> Why?
>> Because Plasmacannon is the best all round anti-anything weapon
in SM arsenal, and in
case of dread you don't have to worry about overheating. It kills
any troops with ease and it is
a template weapon. It is also effective against any but the heaviest
armor.
>> Lascannon is the rational option for a tank hunting drednought
as it is the best anti tank
weapon awailable for SM forces.
>> The missile launcher goes well with both, as it can fire either
Frag or Krak round
depending on the situation at hand.
>> Other weapons available just aren't as good as those mentioned
above and thus are not
worth taking.
>>
>> How to use Dreads in games:
>> If you don't have to go for a objective or capture table quarters,
stay back with the rest of
you shooting units and move only to get better LOS. Then just
let fly with your 2 HV
weapons. If possible, use cover to protect your dread from enemy
fire.
>> In dense terrain you can also try to use cover to block enemy
Heavy weapon squads LOS
to your dread, while being able to fire at different targets
that are less likely to harm the dread.
>>
>> Dreads can also be used to tie up enemy hth squads. If enemy
gets too close to your more
vulnerable troops, first shoot them and then assault with the
dread. most troops can't harm the
dread in hth and are rendered useless for the rest of the game
(watch out for those power fists
or thunder hammers though!)
>>
>> With these tactics I have used my Dreads with great succes.
I like to have at least 1 of
them. usually 2 or 3.
>>
>> Comments/costructive critic/questions are welcome and I'm
willing to answer them.
>>
>> -Ventyr-
Cool treatise. I have a question:
What about twin linked autocannon?
I'd think they would be better than a plasma cannon for shooting
up vehicles. They are a bit
hard to convert, but I have two weapons fits for my dreads: Plasma
or linked ACs. I just find
I use the ACs more.
--T. Ray
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The Ultra Marines are here! (does
happy dance!) . (1 Replies). ultra_marine[]. 10/26/2001 20:26
(10/29/2001 13:18)
?Well since we have no UM players here looks like I’m the first
one.;) Any ways I wanna
know how many of you use assassins and why, and how they fit
in your army and how do you
take on
the problem of deciding how many scout squads and how may tactical
squads and how many
transports you give them (if any)
Ultra_marine,
For the Emperor!
For Ultramar!
?We are the inheritors of the Roboute.
Let no rule be beyond us.
Let no man stand in our way!
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an Ultramarine
asks about assassins and scouts... . (0 Replies).
BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/29/2001 13:18 (10/29/2001 13:18)
++++ Greetings brother!
An Ultramarine talking about assassins, well let's talk about
them.
Assassins are useful (and fun) tis true - but too often I see
them being used as a crutch by
inexperienced Space Marine Commanders. Our people would do better
in the long run to
fully learn the capabilities of our own armies to begin with,
and then later (when you want to
bring an assassin for fun) then have fun and bring them, but
I don't think I'd respect a Space
Marine player as much if I saw a SM army with an assassin in
a tournament. In my opinion
your own army can take care of things just fine. Use them when
gaming for fun when your
scenario storyline might call for one, but do not become dependent
upon them. This fits 40k
fluff too, assassins are meant for special missions - they aren't
meant to bolster a weak
commander. If any one commander kept making requests of the assassinorium
I don't think
they'd keep their job very long, especially when other commanders
can get the job done
without the assassinorium's help :-)
Your second question: "how do you take on the problem of deciding
how many scout squads
and how may tactical squads and how many transports you give
them (if any)
I start with two ten man tac squads (both mounted), then I select
the main elements of the rest
of my force - SM scouts are great for fire support (love sniper
rifles), and scouts with CCW
are great for sticking the enemy into assault early (allowing
us a chance to move our other
forces up behind the cover of the melee - it acts as a line of
sight obstruction).
In short, take infiltrators w/ close combat weapons when you want
to rush up and engage the
enemy quickly - take shooters (sniper rifles, etc) when you want
more of a shooty fire support
role.
Glory to the Emperor and Sanguinius ~ Brother Edward
>> ?Well since we have no UM players here looks like I’m the first
one.;) Any ways I wanna
know how many of you use assassins and why, and how they fit
in your army and how do you
take on
>> the problem of deciding how many scout squads and how may
tactical squads and how
many
>> transports you give them (if any)
>>
>> Ultra_marine,
>>
>> For the Emperor!
>> For Ultramar!
>>
>> ?We are the inheritors of the Roboute.
>> Let no rule be beyond us.
>> Let no man stand in our way!
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RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? . (1 Replies).
Runefang[]. 10/26/2001 21:05 (10/28/2001 0:05)
3 things:
*I'd love to see tactics for Infantry Space Marine armies presented.
*Also what to do with Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders and the dreaded
Land Raiders.
*When to Drop Pod and when not to Drop Pod.
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Dreadnought
and Land Raider Tactica. . (0 Replies). TzeentchHorror[]. 10/28/2001 0:05
(10/28/2001
0:05)
Hmm... well, as far as using drop pods... I can't really help
you because I usually will deep
strike half my army anyways. :) I play Deathwing. However, this
gives me a great opportunity
to discuss Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts.
Dreadnoughts:
Should not be used by themselves with a close combat weapon and
assault cannon.(I don't
see why many people would use them like this except to save points)
If you're only using one
then it needs a twin-linked lascannon and missile launcher to
keep those pesky infidels at bay!
Only if you're already using a dred w/ long range stuff should
you even consider the close
combat weapon one. If you're using a Furioso then just hide it
in cover the whole game until
he can do something worthwhile. Hint, hint: ALWAYS use smoke
launchers on hth dreds.
ALWAYS! and also extra armour. never take the searchlight even
in a night mission cuz all it
does is let everything within range pick on your dreadnought.
Not good. I also say use three
dreds. Two w/ the missile launcher/lascannon and one inexpensive,
stripped down one to
drawn fire from the supporting ones, and it can also pose a bit
of a problem for your
opponent. Suicide it, do stupid, unpredictable things with it
to make him/her wonder.... :)
Land Raiders:
Always take one. It just makes your opponent tremble in fear.
:) Since they're not as effective
when moving and shooting, use a second one and put an assault
or Deathwing termie squad in
it. :) Those can carve a nice hole in your opponents' battle
line.
Good luck fellow Battle Brothers!
~Tzeentch Horror~
(I really should change that name)
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Enter Scythes of the Emperor .
(2 Replies). egbertdfat[alpha_egbert@msn.com]. 10/26/2001 22:12
(10/27/2001 23:00)
There seems to be a dearth of information on fast attacks, their
organization, and employment.
What types of fast attacks are favored? Many land speeders? THREE
assault squads?
Help me out, people, I've got an army to build!
Egbertdfat
Scythes of the Emperor
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favorite
fast attack options . (0 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/26/2001
23:15
(10/26/2001 23:15)
>> There seems to be a dearth of information on fast attacks,
their organization, and
employment.
>> What types of fast attacks are favored? Many land speeders?
THREE assault squads?
>> Help me out, people, I've got an army to build!
>>
>>
>> Egbertdfat
>> Scythes of the Emperor
>>
+++++ greetings brother!
I only have a moment, but my favorite FA choices are:
assault squad - mobile, hard to kill, and wonderfully fun in close
combat :-)
speeders w/ multimelta - good anti armor threat (not very durable
though) used in pairs I like
them :-)
speeder typhoon - great dual threat weapon, can fire on armor
or infantry. again used in pairs
can be very effective.
attack bikes - the basic model with heavy bolters is so great
at reducing infantry groups, I like
to take a group of three when I fight nids or orks :-)
would love to ramble more but must be going now!
Glory to the Emperor!
~ Brother Edward
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RE: Enter
Scythes of the Emperor . (0 Replies). thedisposableman[]. 10/27/2001 23:00
(10/27/2001
23:00)
Three 5 man assault squads, melta bombs and plasma pistols, take
on anything, can sow ultra
confusion. Not as vulnerable as landspeeders and in my opinion
bikes suck
>> There seems to be a dearth of information on fast attacks,
their organization, and
employment.
>> What types of fast attacks are favored? Many land speeders?
THREE assault squads?
>> Help me out, people, I've got an army to build!
>>
>>
>> Egbertdfat
>> Scythes of the Emperor
>>
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bumpity bump :-) (NT) . (0 Replies).
BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/27/2001 10:54 (10/27/2001 10:54)
No Text
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Question about land speeders .
(2 Replies). egbertdfat[]. 10/27/2001 11:09 (10/30/2001 13:02)
Do you have to use the same type of 'speeder in each squadron?
For instance, 3
landspeeders, 3 typhoons, etc?
Or, can your squadrons be mixed? I.e. 1 land speeder and 2 tornadoes?
So many fast attack choices, so few slots!
Egbertdfat
Scythes of the Emperor
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RE: Question
about land speeders . (1 Replies). MidnightHunter[]. 10/27/2001 13:51 (10/30/2001
13:02)
>> Do you have to use the same type of 'speeder in each squadron?
For instance, 3
landspeeders, 3 typhoons, etc?
>> Or, can your squadrons be mixed? I.e. 1 land speeder and 2
tornadoes?
>>
>>
>> So many fast attack choices, so few slots!
>> Egbertdfat
>> Scythes of the Emperor
You can only have normal Landspeeders in squads, tornadoes and
typhoons are always
individual so one typhoon takes up one slot and 2 typhoons take
up 2 slots but 3
landspeeders in a squad take up only one slot.
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RE: RE: Question about land speeders . (0 Replies). WolfLordSorenBloodfist[].
10/30/2001
13:02 (10/30/2001 13:02)
>> >> Do you have to use the same type of 'speeder in each squadron?
For instance, 3
landspeeders, 3 typhoons, etc?
>> >> Or, can your squadrons be mixed? I.e. 1 land speeder and
2 tornadoes?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> So many fast attack choices, so few slots!
>> >> Egbertdfat
>> >> Scythes of the Emperor
>>
>> You can only have normal Landspeeders in squads, tornadoes
and typhoons are always
individual so one typhoon takes up one slot and 2 typhoons take
up 2 slots but 3
landspeeders in a squad take up only one slot.
I tend to use two landspeeders for one fast attack choice with
my white scars. my second
being an assault squad (take ten men for any assault formation),
and my third is going to be
scout bikers.
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All Hail the Emperor! . (6 Replies).
skyfaller[]. 10/27/2001 13:27 (10/29/2001 18:22)
>> Greetings Battle Brothers!
>>
>> If there were a great seminar on Space Marine Tactics, with
members of every chapter
present - what topics would you like to see discussed?
>>
>> I'm looking forward to hearing from ALL the chapters!
>>
>> Glory forever to the Emperor ~ Brother Edward
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RE: All
Hail the Emperor! . (5 Replies). skyfaller[]. 10/27/2001 13:58 (10/29/2001
18:22)
Um, sorry about that...
First, I'd like to thank Brother Edward for the excellent idea
to create this forum. Bravo!
I'd like to open with the question: "Which is more important to
YOUR strategy, firepower or
hand to hand combat? And why, if you please.
Other questions are:
How many of you use actual tatical formations (ie "Refused Flank",
"Buffalo Head",
"Pendulum" etc.) in your battles?
What is your "best bet" when dealing with a foe with vastly superior
long ranged heavy
firepower (ie Imperial Guard, Tau etc.) on a BIG battlefield?
Who among you creates battle reports or after action reviews and
use them to improve your
performance?
And lastly,
How many of you study the works of the ancient greats (von Moltke,
Sun Tzu, Patton,
Guiderian, Charles the Great, etc...) and apply their ideas to
the battlefield?
Cpt. Reese Hynek
C.O. 2nd Reaction Company
Skyfaller Chapter
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Basic Adeptus Astartes Tactica - and several questions . (2 Replies).
BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/27/2001 16:02 (10/29/2001 18:22)
Thank you Brother Cpt. Reese for your kind words :-)
I've found several of the translations of the Art of War to be
useful for their discussions are so
general that they can be applied to many fields of conflict.
In my opinion many of the precepts
of battle for specific commanders (ie Patton, Von Moltke, Guderian
etc) are often on a scale
more sweeping than 40k usually covers.
For me it's a matter of time, look at how long a game lasts, maybe
4 or 6 turns (sometimes
longer) but it is fairly easy for a unit to remain nearly stationary
for 6 turns in many occassions
(ie being rushed by nids, orks, any assault army etc). So when
I think of the game overall I
split things into two big categories - mobile and stationary.
The stationary units sole job is to sit and shoot pretty much
the whole game until destroyed.
The mobile forces bear the responsibility of surviving long enough
to move into position for
their optimal strike (specifics depend on the unit goals ie assault,
or anti armor, or mobile anti
infantry).
This basic way of looking at things has actually made it much
easier for me to keep my battle
plan on track even when the battlefield appears as a chaotic
mess. I know that these three
units here are in good positions - they stay put ant put fire
into the enemy ranks wherever I
need it. This allows me to focus more on the mobile element (which
for an assault army like
the BA is a challenging aspect). For my assault themed Blood
Angels I need to bring enough
troops that the enemy has a hard time weakening my force, and
I need to take enough guns to
occupy his force as a whole - meanwhile I need to be able to
place withering fire on the units
my assault people will hit (or on the units adjacent to them
to prevent damaging counter
assaults from happening the next turn).
So as for which is more important - shooting or assault, I say
it must be a blend. With proper
prep fire an high quality assault unit can rip the heart out
of an army IF that assault has
effective fire coming from the rest of their forces reducing
(and pinning) the remaing enemy
forces.
These are the things I'm trying to perfect at least :-)
Some of my favorite tools?
Whirlwind - while stationary itself, it's range of fire allows
you to place fire on most any part of
the board, a very effective infantry killer.
Space Marine Scout Squad w/ sniper rifles - good at removing enemy
models from the board,
and can sometimes pin a unit.
Landspeeder Typhoon w/ multimelta - mobile, can project firepower
across a distance (much
like a rook or queen in chess). Can hurt infantry, and is a vehicle
threat as well.
Landraider Crusader - excellent if you really want to throw assault
termies into h2h, it's high
armor gives it a good chance to survive this delivery and then
provide a turn or two of
mayhem :-)
Basic Tactical Squads (mounted when possible) the effect of massed
bolter fire is often
overlooked, but if can be a nice firebase once you get them into
position (and that's what the
rhinos are for).
Attack Bikes - take a squadron of three and suddenly you have
a darn mobile firebase, I just
love these guys :-)
Blood Angel Scouts - now I know not all of you are Blood Angels,
but scouts with CCW are
great for sticking the enemy into close combat - your scouts
don't have to destroy the enemy,
just hold them for one turn while you advance behind their melee
(which blocks enemy line of
sight), can be very effective at getting you closer to the bad
guys (if this is what you want).
Assault Sqauds - what can I say, I'm a BA player :-) although
I've found that by being patient
and keeping these units behind cover it forces my opponent to
keep a defensive formation as
he (if he is wise) will fear my assault to any unit which gets
too far from the army center -
therefore I'm screwing with his battle plan if I can do this,
if he breaks formation I can assault
him, and if his plan is to keep in a tight formation this too
is fine because I know where he is
and can act to reduce that group with firing before I assault
at the time of my choosing :-)
Naturally it doesn't always work out so smoothly, but that's
the plan :-)
One last thought before I go - recently I've been trying to wrap
my brain around how an
assault army can deal with enemy armor more effectively.
Traditionally I equip my assault troops with anti armor assault
weapons (meltabombs, plasma
pistols, meltaguns and the like). But lately I've been toying
with the idea of taking some
devastators (yes - despite the threat of Black Rage). So if you
have any comments on this I'd
love to hear your thoughts!
That's it for me, time for others to comment :-)
Glory forever to the Emperor!
~ Brother Edward
PS. one last question - how do any of you ever get a dreadnought
into close combat? most
any time I've ever taken one they are nearly the first thing
to explode, the only time I've used a
dred successfully was in a fire support roll (armed with missile
launcher/twin linked lascannon)
and in that case I kept it in a patch of trees until I wanted
him to advance and fire - he died a
turn or two after he began firing (but he did his job!) :-)
>> Um, sorry about that...
>> First, I'd like to thank Brother Edward for the excellent
idea to create this forum. Bravo!
>>
>> I'd like to open with the question: "Which is more important
to YOUR strategy, firepower
or hand to hand combat? And why, if you please.
>>
>> Other questions are:
>> How many of you use actual tatical formations (ie "Refused
Flank", "Buffalo Head",
"Pendulum" etc.) in your battles?
>>
>> What is your "best bet" when dealing with a foe with vastly
superior long ranged heavy
firepower (ie Imperial Guard, Tau etc.) on a BIG battlefield?
>>
>> Who among you creates battle reports or after action reviews
and use them to improve
your performance?
>>
>> And lastly,
>> How many of you study the works of the ancient greats (von
Moltke, Sun Tzu, Patton,
Guiderian, Charles the Great, etc...) and apply their ideas to
the battlefield?
>>
>> Cpt. Reese Hynek
>> C.O. 2nd Reaction Company
>> Skyfaller Chapter
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RE: Basic Adeptus Astartes Tactica - and several questions . (0 Replies).
Ventyr[].
10/27/2001 17:06 (10/27/2001 17:06)
>> PS. one last question - how do any of you ever get a dreadnought
into close combat?
most any time I've ever taken one they are nearly the first thing
to explode, the only time I've
used a dred successfully was in a fire support roll (armed with
missile launcher/twin linked
lascannon) and in that case I kept it in a patch of trees until
I wanted him to advance and fire -
he died a turn or two after he began firing (but he did his job!)
:-)
Dreadnoughts are no good in hth, because they newer get there,
and even if they get they are
not very good at it.
Read the "Tactica: dreadnougts" that I just wrote to this thread.
-Ventyr-
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RE: Basic Adeptus Astartes Tactica - and several questions . (0 Replies).
ender[].
10/29/2001 18:22 (10/29/2001 18:22)
Brother Edward,
>> One last thought before I go - recently I've been trying to
wrap my brain around how an
assault army can deal with enemy armor more effectively.
Here are some solutions to your anti-armor problem:
A razorback with twin linked lascannons and a tac squad with
a lascannon. I knocked out two
Space Wolf Land Raiders in one turn with that combo. It also
helps to have good die rolls
too. At 105 points- the razorback is a great tank/dreadnought
killer. Plus it draws attention
away from your Assault squad(s) armed with melta bombs and plasma
pistols that'll hit any
tank left standing.
Brother Ender.
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RE: RE: All Hail the Emperor! . (0 Replies). smileyface[]. 10/27/2001 21:14
(10/27/2001 21:14)
>> I'd like to open with the question: "Which is more important
to YOUR strategy, firepower
or hand to hand combat? And why, if you please.
shooting. CC is an unavoidable necessity.
>> Other questions are:
>> How many of you use actual tatical formations (ie "Refused
Flank", "Buffalo Head",
"Pendulum" etc.) in your battles?
My plan with any force is to engage only a portion of the enemy
force`at a time. This is
probably because I usually play eldar and they are too fragile
for a stand up fight... this carries
over into my marines as less mobile but more carefully deployed
armies, oftne leading to a
refused flank formation, or some similar concept based on the
particular terrain.
>> What is your "best bet" when dealing with a foe with vastly
superior long ranged heavy
firepower (ie Imperial Guard, Tau etc.) on a BIG battlefield?
Scenery. Deep strike. If neither is available, you will lose heinously.
I frequently take six
termies with 2 assault cannon... if they can deep strike I like
to. Except against eldar of any
kind who have transported squads of power weapon maniacs and
nids where a) they cover
the entire table and b) you need the firepower right from the
start.
>> Who among you creates battle reports or after action reviews
and use them to improve
your performance?
I dont write battle reports but I do think about what happened
and why and try to work out
what I did right and wrong.
>> And lastly,
>> How many of you study the works of the ancient greats (von
Moltke, Sun Tzu, Patton,
Guiderian, Charles the Great, etc...) and apply their ideas to
the battlefield?
Their ideas were come in two categories. 1) Things that will always
be true, and 2) things that
were applicable to the battlefields of their day. Obviously,
40k not being like anything in
history, those of 2) are useless, and those of 1) are usually
really obvious... stuff like 'use
terrain to your advantage'
>>
>> Cpt. Reese Hynek
>> C.O. 2nd Reaction Company
>> Skyfaller Chapter
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RE: RE: All Hail the Emperor! . (0 Replies). ender[]. 10/29/2001 17:34
(10/29/2001 17:34)
+++I too would like to thank Brother Edward for the excellent
idea to create this forum.
>> I'd like to open with the question: "Which is more important
to YOUR strategy, firepower
or hand to hand combat? And why, if you please.
Being a BA Fleshtearer army, my focus is on HtH with hard hitting
support troops and elites.
(Dreads and Lascannons) Why? Like my BA counterparts, I get the
+1 Str and +1 Int with all
first assaults so it's very important for me to get in there
quick.
>>
>> Other questions are:
>> How many of you use actual tatical formations (ie "Refused
Flank", "Buffalo Head",
"Pendulum" etc.) in your battles?
It really all depends on the army I face. But my main tactic is
a variant of the Bulls/Buffalo
head. Using fast attack troops as the horns. The only difference-
I refuse a flank in the center
for more fire support and with Fast Attacks positioned to both
sides, my opponents tend to
deploy wider to counter. This allows for a little more safety
for my firebase since some of their
troops will be depolyed out of range. Then when the time is right,
charge right up the side.
>>
>> What is your "best bet" when dealing with a foe with vastly
superior long ranged heavy
firepower (ie Imperial Guard, Tau etc.) on a BIG battlefield?
Cover and speed to get into assault.
>>
>> Who among you creates battle reports or after action reviews
and use them to improve
your performance?
I always make notes on my battles and make changes.
>>
>> And lastly,
>> How many of you study the works of the ancient greats (von
Moltke, Sun Tzu, Patton,
Guiderian, Charles the Great, etc...) and apply their ideas to
the battlefield?
>>
>> Cpt. Reese Hynek
>> C.O. 2nd Reaction Company
>> Skyfaller Chapter
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SM have no real tactics . (2 Replies).
Sygmar[]. 10/27/2001 16:33 (10/27/2001 17:22)
They charge and win. They are ****ing beardy. END OF STORY
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RE: SM
have no real tactics . (1 Replies). mejahyan[]. 10/27/2001 16:54 (10/27/2001
17:22)
>>
>>
>> They charge and win. They are ****ing beardy. END OF STORY
>>Ahh, but let's be honest. We marines are intended to be the
ultimate crack troops in the
universe. From the sound of it we seem to be doing the job just
fine.
-For Sanguinius
Mejahyan
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a purity seal for Brother Mejahyan :-) (NT) . (0 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[].
10/27/2001 17:22 (10/27/2001 17:22)
No Text
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RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? . (5 Replies).
mejahyan[]. 10/27/2001 17:09 (10/29/2001 15:45)
>> Greetings Battle Brothers!
>>
>> If there were a great seminar on Space Marine Tactics, with
members of every chapter
present - what topics would you like to see discussed?
>>
>> I'm looking forward to hearing from ALL the chapters!
>>
>> Glory forever to the Emperor ~ Brother Edward
>>I would like tips from other marines on a couple major issues.
1. Landspeeder Survival Tactics 101-- a briefing on how to utilise
your landspeeders as more
than a moving target with one lucky shot.
2. Meditation for Heavy Weaponry Specialists-- a seminar on the
use of meditation to aid
Devastator Blood Angels from blowing their shots and running
forward.
3. Astral-Projection Techniques and the Machine Spirit-- a guided
seminar on the rarity of the
Space Marine Land Raider and its unusual tendency to appear in
nearly every battle.
4. Making the least of your allies-- an open mic for space marines
and their tacticians to voice
justifications for Officio Assasinorum presence in every battle
they fight.
5. Getting in touch with the inner You-- A guided meditation for
space marines to connect
with their inner-geneseed.
Ahhh----sounds like a fun and informative weekend workshop. I'd
better ask my Force
Commander for permission to attend. Get your passes early. They'll
even provide a meal!
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Artillery,
and how to live with it . (3 Replies). GreyGriffin[]. 10/28/2001 1:41 (10/29/2001
15:45)
I employ a fairly specialized force. The whole thing is based
around the Fourth Company
Honor Guard, a close combat veteran squad, augmented by my personal
presence. Stowed
safely within the bowels of our Land Raider, flanked by two full
tactical squads in Rhinos, we
charge headlong into the enemy line. The tactical squads will
disembark at a predetermined
point and lay softening fire into the enemy line before the Fourth
Company Honor Guard and I
disembark from said Land Raider and proceed to lay waste to our
foes.
Behind us is a Devastator Squad and (hopefully) another tactial
squad, to mop up anything we
leave behind.
However, we have one dreaded foe.
Artillery.
This simple implement is the bane of my entire force. A simple
hill and a single shell (and the
inability to Deep Strike my Terminators, if I have them to spare)
can foul my entire advance.
How do I deal with this? Do I just have to suck it up and take
it? Or is there some secret
weapon I am overlooking? Please, advise me, brother Marines.
Chaplain Alan O'David
Ultramarines Fourth Battle Company
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Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? . (2 Replies). egbertdfat[].
10/29/2001 0:04
(10/29/2001 15:45)
I've been working on that little problem myself.
Unfortunately, the only thing we have for counter-battery is
the Whirlwind. A good artillery
piece, but not worth a tinker's damn when trying to snuff out
a Behomoth.
Hence, my questions on Landspeeders. For a really outlandish
idea, how about 2 landspeeder
squadrons of 3 'speeders each? Maybe equip one with a multi-melta
and two with heavy
bolters? I think that with this, you should be able to punch
through the front line along the
flank, with enough survivors to kill off the offending gun. After
that, you can unleash them to
raise hell behind the lines. If nothing else, it would provide
a nice distraction.
My only question is, would your opponent invoke the cry of CHEESE?
Egbertdfat, Commanding, 8th Reserve Company,
Scythes of the Emperor
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About "cheese" . (1 Replies). Ventyr[]. 10/29/2001 13:48 (10/29/2001 15:45)
As far as I'm concerned, cheese doesn't exist. (except if you
mean food)
Claiming that some army/unit/model/whatever is cheesy or beardy
just gives away ones
incompetence as a commander and incapability to answer to this
threat with something of your
own.
Theres no such things as unbeatable armies. Everything can be
beaten. You just have to
improve your own army composition and tactics to be able to respond
accordingly. Every
Codex army list is thoroughly playtested before release and thus
balanced. So those things
that are too powerful in some aspect (=definition of "cheese")
never get to the final codex.
You can freely use anything in any amount if it's legally allowed
by your armylist. Just ignore
those childs whining about cheese everytime they lose a game.
Cheese doesn't exist. period.
Captain Arianus
5th company
Knights Templar
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Yes there are, though good commanders can beat them . (0 Replies).
thedisposableman[]. 10/29/2001 15:45 (10/29/2001 15:45)
I think there are cheesy armies, though you don't wine about
them or use them as an excuse.
You beat them. 3 wraithlords are definately cheesy, though they
can be beaten.
>> As far as I'm concerned, cheese doesn't exist. (except if you
mean food)
>> Claiming that some army/unit/model/whatever is cheesy or beardy
just gives away ones
incompetence as a commander and incapability to answer to this
threat with something of your
own.
>> Theres no such things as unbeatable armies. Everything can
be beaten. You just have to
improve your own army composition and tactics to be able to respond
accordingly. Every
Codex army list is thoroughly playtested before release and thus
balanced. So those things
that are too powerful in some aspect (=definition of "cheese")
never get to the final codex.
You can freely use anything in any amount if it's legally allowed
by your armylist. Just ignore
those childs whining about cheese everytime they lose a game.
>> Cheese doesn't exist. period.
>>
>> Captain Arianus
>> 5th company
>> Knights Templar
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RE: RE:
The great SM Tactics Seminar - what would you want to see discussed? .
(0 Replies).
skyfaller[]. 10/29/2001 13:33 (10/29/2001 13:33)
The only way I've found to keep Land Speeders (and Dreadnoughts
too) is to give the enemy
something to shoot at that seems more important. A single 'Speeder
flitting about supporting
an advance is not very imtimidating. A Speeder that jets right
toward the main battle tank is a
major threat and will be targeted as so. My advice is for a single
speeder would be to go in as
part of an advance, seeming unimportant, until you are in dash
range of your target. Takes
some subtlety though and not foolproof.
The other way to protect them is in numbers (as stated elsewhere
in this post by our esteemed
breatheren). Three basic 'Speeders are one FA choice, but the
cost means a squad or so of
Tacticals stay home. As always, you have to weigh the costs...
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RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? . (2 Replies).
BorisGT[]. 10/28/2001 17:55 (10/29/2001 13:33)
i would like to see the ways different commanders attack defend
retreat and cover their
retreaters during battle also i would like to see what arguments
come over power armor color
hehehe
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RE: RE:
The great SM Tactics Seminar - what would you want to see discussed? .
(0 Replies).
sulla[]. 10/29/2001 0:49 (10/29/2001 0:49)
>> i would like to see the ways different commanders attack defend
retreat and cover their
retreaters during battle also i would like to see what arguments
come over power armor color
hehehe
RETREAT????
Capt Sulla, 5th Co. Ultramarines
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Offensive
Strategies and Defensive Formations . (0 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[].
10/29/2001 13:33 (10/29/2001 13:33)
>> i would like to see the ways different commanders attack defend
retreat and cover their
retreaters during battle also i would like to see what arguments
come over power armor color
hehehe
+++ Greetings Battle Brother!
The topic you bring up is a good one. Our mission is to destroy
the enemies of the Emperor,
we can do this by actively hunting them - and also by letting
the enemy batter themselves to
death against our weapons - either way is acceptable.
Let us discuss defensive formations first. Try to keep your units
close together, position large
troop concentrations at the front ranks, have your mobile fire
support (ie vehicles, scout
assault troops) remain behind the front line. As the enemy approaches
focus your fire into the
most severe threats initially - heavy weapons people/vehicles
take out enemy vehicles (or big
bugs) massed infantry fire should go to reducing the size of
enemy infantry formations (nearest
first). Have a couple of your fire support vehicles focus their
efforts on the enemy elite to
reduce their numbers before they hit. Continue this as the enemy
approaches and then when
they are close enough you need to assault them with your own
assault troops (this is where it
will get messy). Scouts with ccw may be used for this purpose,
but their input may be most
helpful in supporting a taq squad who is repulsing an assault
(ie the tac squad was assaulted,
but didn't get wiped out, so the next turn the scouts can come
in and get their assault bouses,
this combined with the tac squad should end the assault).
Assault Formations: (this will have to be short - I'm needed at
the front! :-)
again a fire support role for much of the army - firing at enemy
vehicles ASAP, massed
infantry fire reducing enemy troops as much as possible - your
own assault troops maneuver
carefully to avoid being shot at, and try to launch (and land!)
their assaults at the same time
(ideally adjacent to each other). support fire for these assaults
is critical. Whether you move
your jumppack people up behind terrain, or deepstrike them (again
landing behind terrain so
you can't be shot or assaulted immediately upon landing!) the
role of fire support for your own
assault troops is vital.
must be going now.
Glory to the Emperor and Sanguinius ~ Brother Edward
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Where are all the Blood Angel players
(NT) . (4 Replies). Larke[]. 10/29/2001 0:39 (10/31/2001 0:45)
No Text
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yes...
. (3 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/29/2001 13:37 (10/31/2001
0:45)
yes they do seem to be rare these days... anything I can help
with?
~ Brother Edward
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RE: yes... . (2 Replies). Larke[]. 10/30/2001 2:48 (10/31/2001 0:45)
>> yes they do seem to be rare these days... anything I can help
with?
>>
>> ~ Brother Edward
Yeah what do you think is the best unit for the BA after Death
Company and Veteran Assault
Squads ive got enough of those and 40 Tactical Squads
Oh yeah and the Baal Pred and the Furioso(spelling) now im stuck
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making a BA army.... . (1 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/30/2001
9:46 (10/31/2001
0:45)
>> Yeah what do you think is the best unit for the BA after Death
Company and Veteran
Assault Squads ive got enough of those and 40 Tactical Squads
>> Oh yeah and the Baal Pred and the Furioso(spelling) now im
stuck
++++ Greetings Brother!
Blood Angels are a fun army to collect and paint aren't they?
:-) Let's see here...
Death Company (Chaplain)
veteran assault squads
now did you say 40 tactical squads? that's gotta be a typo :-)
Baal Pred, Furioso
Next on your Christmas list you might think about:
two or three rhinos for your tac squads (a MUST for Blood Angels
tac squads!) :-)
a whirlwind
a couple of scout squads with close combat weapons
one scout squad with sniper rifles (great for fire support)
landspeeder typhoons (two of them)
these units will allow you to launch a new kind of assault where
you pepper the enemy with
cover fire (and assaults from your scout infiltrators) while
your assault people move up for the
assault :-)
after that think about:
two or three attack bikes (another great mobile fire support option)
then later (after months of gaming with all these models you might
want to look into getting a
landraider crusader and some assault terminators - this is such
a great unit, but it costs a lot of
points, the reason I recommend getting these last is that all
of the other units cost (points wise)
less, which means you can use them in a game and if they are
destroyed you still have a
powerful fighting force (each unit isn't all that particularly
powerful), but when you sink so
many points into something like terminators you'd better have
an idea of how to use them fairly
well or else your whole army might be in trouble if they get
stuck in a bad position :-)
well that't it for me - I know I've outlined a lot here, it would
take a long time for anyone to
collect and assemble all these models, and then months to play
games with them to get a solid
feel for how they work - but that's the great thing about this
game, we have all these fun things
to play with - and there's no rush whatsoever :-)
have fun collecting/ assembling / painting, and most of all gaming!
If I can help with anything
please let me know!
~ Brother Edward
PS. one other thing you really might want to look into is the
Interactive Army List (a computer
program that GW/Black Library sell) it helps you make army lists
and is SOOO helpful in
making sure everything is legal :-) When you buy it you then
have to download a patch for the
program (that fixes a couple of bugs and updates the program)
then you download the files for
your army (Blood Angels) and whammo you are all set to make army
lists until the cows come
home :-)
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RE: making a BA army.... . (0 Replies). Larke[sanguinuis@hotmail.com].
10/31/2001 0:45
(10/31/2001 0:45)
Yes the Blood Angels are great fun nothing like watching the
enemys face when you roll 1s he
thinks its great then your your entire army surges forward (although
ive only ever managed to
roll four 1s in a row for the Black Rage)
Thanks for the advice im thinking about another Assualt Squad
and some more scouts with
Sniper Rifles ive already have one squad with Bolt Pistols and
combat Shotguns (you have
gotta love em)
I dont think i will be needing another Land raider the basic
type is good enough at the
moment, its nearly the only thing that can deal with Tanks for
me at the moment and a Dev
Squad is to unreliable at times i think ill order a couple o
Rhinos. While im on Rhinos do you
always take the overcharged engines i know i do with my froce
Commanders Razorback.
The thing i hate with blood Angels is: if you are fighting the
Nid's its very frustrating to watch a
unit advance to close to the enemy in the Black Rage then inly
to watch them get butchered by
3 squads, altough i was impressed with my Force commander on
one ocassion where he and
his honor guard killed a quarter of the enemies 2000 point army
(he didnt seem very happy
lol)
P.S 40 Tac marines wasnt a typo.... well it is now because cut
5 of them up to put on a Dark
Eldar Talos (im also working on an Imperial Guard army aswell
but it hasnt realy got started)
What company of the BA do you call yours mine is the 4th company
OH yea where do i get this interactive Army slector
Any thanx again
Hail the Emperor and Sanguinius
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RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? . (9 Replies).
silentpoet[]. 10/29/2001 13:19 (10/30/2001 16:40)
>> Greetings Battle Brothers!
>>
>> If there were a great seminar on Space Marine Tactics, with
members of every chapter
present - what topics would you like to see discussed?
>>
>> I'm looking forward to hearing from ALL the chapters!
>>
>> Glory forever to the Emperor ~ Brother Edward
why do about 80% of the sm forces i encounter favour stand and
shoot-tactics?
hell, i even encountered stand and shoot BA more than just once!!!
sorry for swearing...
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not me
:-) . (8 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/29/2001 13:36 (10/30/2001
16:40)
>>
>> why do about 80% of the sm forces i encounter favour stand
and shoot-tactics?
>> hell, i even encountered stand and shoot BA more than just
once!!!
>> sorry for swearing...
Yikes! What a terrible statistic! I'm all mobile, and I mean ALL
mobile. Deepstriking, driving
transports all over the place - but I've been fighting an experienced
Eldar player for quite
some time so mobility was the only way to go.
I'm thinking those who stand and shoot all the time have simply
not faced an experienced
Eldar commander - else they would have paid quite dearly...
~ Brother Edward the mobile :-)
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RE: not me :-) . (0 Replies). silentpoet[]. 10/29/2001 13:51 (10/29/2001
13:51)
>>
>> >>
>> >> why do about 80% of the sm forces i encounter favour stand
and shoot-tactics?
>> >> hell, i even encountered stand and shoot BA more than just
once!!!
>> >> sorry for swearing...
>>
>> Yikes! What a terrible statistic! I'm all mobile, and I mean
ALL mobile. Deepstriking,
driving transports all over the place - but I've been fighting
an experienced Eldar player for
quite some time so mobility was the only way to go.
>>
>> I'm thinking those who stand and shoot all the time have simply
not faced an experienced
Eldar commander - else they would have paid quite dearly...
>>
>> ~ Brother Edward the mobile :-)
they do pay indeed...
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RE: not me :-) . (3 Replies). silentpoet[]. 10/29/2001 14:04 (10/30/2001
16:40)
>>
>> >>
>> >> why do about 80% of the sm forces i encounter favour stand
and shoot-tactics?
>> >> hell, i even encountered stand and shoot BA more than just
once!!!
>> >> sorry for swearing...
>>
>> Yikes! What a terrible statistic! I'm all mobile, and I mean
ALL mobile. Deepstriking,
driving transports all over the place - but I've been fighting
an experienced Eldar player for
quite some time so mobility was the only way to go.
>>
>> I'm thinking those who stand and shoot all the time have simply
not faced an experienced
Eldar commander - else they would have paid quite dearly...
>>
>> ~ Brother Edward the mobile :-)
actually they went as far as to vdr earthshaker cannons into their
sm-forces (and this from a
black templar i.e., aaaaargh!!!!)
but they still pay, the only interesting sm player i faced lately
was our new BA player (going
from DA to BA...) and all we managed was a draw in a night fight
(i never saw that many
scouts in a sm army before...)
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scouts :-) . (2 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/29/2001 14:51 (10/30/2001
16:40)
>> actually they went as far as to vdr earthshaker cannons into
their sm-forces (and this from
a black templar i.e., aaaaargh!!!!)
>>
>> but they still pay, the only interesting sm player i faced
lately was our new BA player
(going from DA to BA...) and all we managed was a draw in a night
fight (i never saw that
many scouts in a sm army before...)
++++++ well we have to teach the young ones somewhere don't we?
and what better way
than to begin with teaching them how to kill Eldar? :-)
Seriously though, the scout's ability to infiltrate is an invaluable
quality for sticking some enemy
units into very early h2h whilst the rest of our forces move
up (hopefully using the melee to
block at least some of the line of sight!).
And I think the firepower of a space marine scout squad speaks
for itself - what a great way
to selectively bring pressure on specific enemy units (gotta
love sniper rifles).
I'm a firm believer in taking the right tool for the job (my opponents
do the same I assure
you!), the question in our part of the galaxy is one of movement
- let's say we all bring the right
gear - but can we get it all into position to be useful and effective?
That's the challenge in these
parts :-)
Too many burning rhinos have I seen, too many battle brothers
mowed down - their armor
availing them not, we must use all that we know (equipment, deployment,
movement, traps) to
fight the Eldar threat...
They should not be the mainstay of one's force granted, but they
do have ways to contribute
significantly even though they are only scouts.
Glory to the Emperor and Sanguinius ~ Brother Edward
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Force composition, scouts, and other stuff . (1 Replies).
egbertdfat[alpha_egbert@msn.com]. 10/30/2001 7:57 (10/30/2001
16:40)
First, I don't see anything wrong with armies that are 'shooty'.
After all, firepower is used to
offset the relatively fewer marines that can be deployed during
a given skirmish.
Does this mean I advocate the stand and shoot tactic? Not at
all. In my humble opinion, while
a good fire base is needed, mobile forces are also neccessary
to deal with the unexpected,
seize objectives, disrupt opponents' plans, and just being a
general pain.
Soviet doctrine, as well as that of the USMC, or the WWII German,
and many other all stress
combined arms operations. Why? You can have the right forces
available at the right time, to
deal with threats and/or opportunities as they arise.
Also, you need to consider the mission. If all you play is "last
man standing wins", you don't
need much finesse. Break-out, quartering, and other missions
require more mobility. Holding
an objective requires more fire power, with mobile units in reserve
to deal with the
unexpected.
Now for a question of my own...
How do you field scout units? I'm currently builing a marine
army, and my next unit will be a
10-man scout squad. With sniper rifles, heavy bolters, and missile
launcher, these guys can be
quite a nuisance. Has any one used them with close-assault weopons?
How, in general, did
they fare?
Well, I'm off the soap-box for now.
Egbertdfat, Commanding, 8th Reserve Company,
Scythes of the Emperor
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I agree completely, and answers to your questions :-) . (0 Replies).
BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/30/2001 16:40 (10/30/2001 16:40)
Oh botch I hope I didn't come off sounding anti shooty! In fact
it's been one of my
longstanding goals to become the shootiest assault army in town
:-)
Shooting is ESSENTIAL for assault armies, for a number of reasons.
You always need a way
to take out enemy vehicles (especially other mounted assault
armies), and naturally you'll want
to silence any enemy armor as fast as you can. For me balancing
the blend of shooting power
while at the same time taking advantage of all the bonuses we
Blood Angels get in assault has
been a continuous search for the best blend - and at this point
I don't think there is a "best"
blend, but I think there are a few trends that work well :-)
Naturally the mission objectives
play a large roll in things, yet another reason it's always good
to have mobility - mobility gives
one options :-) But I've seen it all fall apart when the army
didn't have enough firepower to
protect it's mobile troops!
Now it's funny you should mention scouts right at this point -
they are an integral part of all
this. :-)
Scouts (in my army) have one of two rolls.
1) sit and shoot
2) rush forward into h2h
for option one we give them whichever weapons we prefer, generally
though I really enjoy
sniper rifles, they are useful against a variety of threats,
they can pin units, and are relatively
inexpensive (always a good thing!) Have them set up in cover
somewhere (ideally let them just
start the game there with infiltration), and just let them shoot
the entire game :-)
For option 2 (the assault option), we equip everyone with close
combat weapons, have them
infiltrate as deeply as possible (in cover naturally) - then
rush them forward to engage the
enemy in an assault. Use sufficient numbers such that the combat
will result in a protracted
melee - for you want that melee to provide a line of sight obsruction
while your other units
rush forward. Hence whether the scouts could take that unit on
their own is irrelevant because
hopefully they'll be reinforced in just a moment by either one
of your tac squads or one of your
assault squads - either way, the purpose of the scout squads
in this case is to engage the
enemy very early in h2h to tie them down (and block line of sight)
while you rush the rest of
your people up. To do this along a large front you need three
groups of scouts with close
combat weapons, followed up by your mounted (or jumppack equipped)
forces.
On another happy note the scouts are actually VERY effective in
assault :-) you'll quickly find
that they are very effective at taking a bite or two out of the
enemy! So if you've never tried
anything like this before I say go give it a whirl (or two) and
see what happens! Things won't
always go totally your way, but I think you'll find these tactics
both effective and entertaining!
:-)
Glory to the Emperor and Sanguinius ~ Brother Edward
>> First, I don't see anything wrong with armies that are 'shooty'.
After all, firepower is used
to offset the relatively fewer marines that can be deployed during
a given skirmish.
>> Does this mean I advocate the stand and shoot tactic? Not
at all. In my humble opinion,
while a good fire base is needed, mobile forces are also neccessary
to deal with the
unexpected, seize objectives, disrupt opponents' plans, and just
being a general pain.
>> Soviet doctrine, as well as that of the USMC, or the WWII
German, and many other all
stress combined arms operations. Why? You can have the right
forces available at the right
time, to deal with threats and/or opportunities as they arise.
>> Also, you need to consider the mission. If all you play is
"last man standing wins", you
don't need much finesse. Break-out, quartering, and other missions
require more mobility.
Holding an objective requires more fire power, with mobile units
in reserve to deal with the
unexpected.
>> Now for a question of my own...
>> How do you field scout units? I'm currently builing a marine
army, and my next unit will be
a 10-man scout squad. With sniper rifles, heavy bolters, and
missile launcher, these guys can
be quite a nuisance. Has any one used them with close-assault
weopons? How, in general, did
they fare?
>> Well, I'm off the soap-box for now.
>>
>> Egbertdfat, Commanding, 8th Reserve Company,
>> Scythes of the Emperor
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RE: not me :-) . (2 Replies). Ventyr[]. 10/29/2001 14:05 (10/29/2001 15:48)
>> Yikes! What a terrible statistic! I'm all mobile, and I mean
ALL mobile. Deepstriking,
driving transports all over the place - but I've been fighting
an experienced Eldar player for
quite some time so mobility was the only way to go.
>>
>> I'm thinking those who stand and shoot all the time have simply
not faced an experienced
Eldar commander - else they would have paid quite dearly...
>>
>> ~ Brother Edward the mobile :-)
I usully stand and shoot most of the time, as I play almost purely
shooty SM armies. It works
against anyone and anything. And works well. Let them be how
mobile they want to.
You can neutralize enemys advantage in mobility by proper deployment.
Of course I have also
mobile shooty units like my beloved Dreadnoughts, and I use assault
marines in counter
assault role to protect all those shooty guys. Shooty army can
afford to stay stationary and
rely on it's massed firepower.
All assault army is the one who is having hard time with all
those Eldar fliers.
ps. and I happen to be experienced Eldar commander myself, when
off duty from imperiums
service
Captain Arianus
5th company
Knights Templar
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fighting the Eldar? Tell us how! . (1 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[].
10/29/2001
15:06 (10/29/2001 15:48)
Hello again!
I'd LOVE to hear anything you have to say about fighting Eldar.
Can you post what you
typically take? Can you describe a little about your engagements?
I've fought many shooty
mobile Eldar armies and have found none of them easy to deal
with - I for one could use all
the help and advice you have to share :-)
looking forward to hearing all the details ~ Brother Edward
>> I usully stand and shoot most of the time, as I play almost
purely shooty SM armies. It
works against anyone and anything. And works well. Let them be
how mobile they want to.
>> You can neutralize enemys advantage in mobility by proper
deployment. Of course I have
also mobile shooty units like my beloved Dreadnoughts, and I
use assault marines in counter
assault role to protect all those shooty guys. Shooty army can
afford to stay stationary and
rely on it's massed firepower.
>> All assault army is the one who is having hard time with all
those Eldar fliers.
>>
>> ps. and I happen to be experienced Eldar commander myself,
when off duty from
imperiums service
>>
>> Captain Arianus
>> 5th company
>> Knights Templar
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RE: fighting the Eldar? Tell us how! . (0 Replies). Ventyr[]. 10/29/2001
15:48 (10/29/2001 15:48)
>> Hello again!
>>
>> I'd LOVE to hear anything you have to say about fighting Eldar.
Can you post what you
typically take? Can you describe a little about your engagements?
I've fought many shooty
mobile Eldar armies and have found none of them easy to deal
with - I for one could use all
the help and advice you have to share :-)
>>
>> looking forward to hearing all the details ~ Brother Edward
>>
Hi.
I'll try to write tomorrow about killing those pointy eared aliens.
Now I'm getting too tired
from the days fighting rites and will go to sleep. See you later.
=)
Captain Arianus
5th Company
Knights Templar
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Dark Angel Assault Marine tactics
. (0 Replies). erdagon[]. 10/29/2001 13:32 (10/29/2001 13:32)
Would love to see assault tactics about Dark Angels Assault Marines
. Or even assault tactics
using the DA with suggestions about troops and tactics .
Erdagon Faldan
Dark Angels commander
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BLOOD RAGE!! The Fleshtearers are
Here. . (2 Replies). ender[]. 10/29/2001 14:13 (10/30/2001 8:58)
Fear not Brothers, We are here.
Question:
What is the best tactic for the Furioso Dreadnought? Is it to
assualt tanks, tie up troops or
something else. With its 6" move, movement is quite restricted.
Let me know what you think.
Ender
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there has
been much discussion on this... . (0 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[].
10/29/2001 16:15 (10/29/2001 16:15)
Greetings Brother,
There has been much discussion already about the use of dreadnoughts
- have a look at this
essay posted earlier in this thread
> Tactica: Dreadnoughts Ventyr (10/27/2001 16:54).
It is an insightful, in depth essay, with several follow up posts.
Just to forewarn you, many of us have difficulty keeping dreadnoughts
alive long enough to get
into h2h, the essay goes into many of the details and options.
Glory to the Emperor and Sanguinius ~ Brother Edward
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drop pod
army . (0 Replies). mwdalrymple[]. 10/30/2001 8:58 (10/30/2001 8:58)
best thing to do with furioso's is to develop a drop pod army
and then deep strike them into
your opponents deployment zone.
matt
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RE: The great SM Tactics Seminar
- what would you want to see discussed? . (0 Replies).
castellanlazarus[]. 10/30/2001 6:19 (10/30/2001 6:19)
>> Greetings Battle Brothers!
>>
>> If there were a great seminar on Space Marine Tactics, with
members of every chapter
present - what topics would you like to see discussed?
>>
I would like to hear the combined wisdom of the chapters on the
subject of co-ordinated
assaults.
when to co-ordinate, and which units are suited to backing up
a squad in combat, and also
when to stagger the attack, in effect forming lines and creating
waves of attackers.(hard when
you have limited models like SM) and no i dont mean IG tactics-id
like to be alive afterwards!
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All Hail!!! The World Eaters enter
the discussion! whoops, wrong seminar. . (2 Replies).
straightjacket[colotsun@yahoo.co.uk]. 10/30/2001 8:34 (10/30/2001
15:19)
Tactics? TACTICS???? What need is there for tactics?
I say strike hard, strike fast, kill every enemy while they sit
and ponder their tactics!!!
The pen is not mightier than the sword when engaged in deadly
hand to hand combat with the
chosen of Khorne.
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!!
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*sigh*
foolish betrayers... . (0 Replies). mwdalrymple[]. 10/30/2001 9:26 (10/30/2001
9:26)
*sigh*.. foolish betrayers.. skulls, blood .. blah blah blah
something about a fancy chair.
SM are Loyal to only the emperor and as such, act much differently
than the accursed
traitorous world eaters.
I am sure if SM were blood crazy maniacs (blood angels excluded,
they deal with their insane
in a controlled environment), then they too wouldn't require
tactics and would run around like
a pack of mongoloids. But, since they do require thought, tactics
are important. oh well...
matt
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Thats it...just
a little closer...Got ya! . (0 Replies). SirGore[]. 10/30/2001 15:19 (10/30/2001
15:19)
Dear Vile Heretic,
You may want to consider deeping your pool of opponents.
Why?
Cuz its fun ;-)
I would really like to see if a CSm Korne army could fight its
way out of any ambush or well
orcistrated death trap. My guess is no but I would love to see
the fights.
Yours in contempt of your treason and vileness ;-)
Ivar Wulfenhardt
>> Tactics? TACTICS???? What need is there for tactics?
>>
>> I say strike hard, strike fast, kill every enemy while they
sit and ponder their tactics!!!
>>
>> The pen is not mightier than the sword when engaged in deadly
hand to hand combat with
the chosen of Khorne.
>>
>> BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!!
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The Use of Rhino . (6 Replies).
mwdalrymple[]. 10/30/2001 9:27 (10/31/2001 6:27)
>> Greetings Battle Brothers!
>>
>> If there were a great seminar on Space Marine Tactics, with
members of every chapter
present - what topics would you like to see discussed?
>>
>> I'm looking forward to hearing from ALL the chapters!
>>
>> Glory forever to the Emperor ~ Brother Edward
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oops. messed
up, read this one! . (5 Replies). mwdalrymple[]. 10/30/2001 9:54 (10/31/2001
6:27)
The usefulness of the rhino is often over looked and they are
ussually not used to their full
potnential.
I think that a discussion on this topic is important!
Rhino's primary goal is troop devlivry. Since they are a lightly
armored vehicle they are
ussually a big target for most armies artillary.
But if your rhino does its job and deliver's its cargo, then what
to do with it??
Here are a few thoughts on this:
1) You can use it to do some tank shocking. Run through your
opponents lines picking on low
ld troops. Doesn't work with tyrandids since for the most part
they are all fearless for most of
the time.
2) My favorite use for them is mobile cover bases. Since your
rhino has an Armor value of 11,
it is pretty much immune to basic weaponry (ie str 4 ap 5 - weapons)
which is ussually the
only weapons that can be shot in mass numbers (mind you the tau
now have Str 5 ap 5 in
mass numbers... very evil). With this in mind, having a Rhino
shadow another unit (a bike
squad, an assault squad or even tactical marines, which is susceptable
to basic weapon fire) to
provide cover on the advance.
With this, if one has 2-3 rhions available, one can even form
a mobile terrian. Speeding up the
board, deploying their troops loads, and then at the end of the
move, you can turn them to
face anyway you want and align them all to form a neat little
wall to cover your troops.
This also provides another way, if you are tactically savy, to
divide up your opponents army.
You can drive up your multiple rhinos (you can even do this with
something larger like a land
raider), deploy your troops, a then proceed to drive up the middle
of your opponents line and
make a train (line) of vehicles and cut your opponents forces
in 1/2, providing you with the
opportunity to piece me his forces. Simple divide and conquer.
This is just some food for thought. Often rhinos are ignored after
the troops are deployed as
they are generally not a big threat anymore (ie there are more
important things to shoot at).
Use this to your advantage and try some funky rhino formations.
You might end up surprising
your opponent!
Hope that helps,
Matt
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The Rhino and its fellows . (4 Replies). GreyGriffin[]. 10/30/2001 15:36
(10/31/2001 6:27)
This post has brought up a facet of combat hat I feel hasn't
been adequately covered.
Dreadnought performance has been adequately detailed (and Captain
Idaeus is busy ordering
a refitting of ours as we speak), and the Land Raider has been
discussed in passing. However,
there has not been much said on the Rhino variant tanks, the
Predators, the Vanquisher, and
the Razorback.
Of these, which do you prefer? Obviously, the Razorback is a formidable
weapon when
combined with a small, powerful squad, like devastators or even
close combat veterans in a
small battle, but when are the extra four men a favorable option
over the increased firepower?
The Predators obviously are formidable tanks, amongst the heaviest
armoured vehicles that
the Imperium has to offer. The two variants have obvious purposes,
but when faced with
sponson options, is it best to specialize, or diversify? And
agaist what opponent is it best to
have which Predator, specifically when faced with inadequate
intelligence as to the enemy's
force composition?
And, to put it frankly, is the Vanquisher EVER worth its weight?
The sheer volume of
firepower that it offers makes it tempting, but its comparatively
light armour and abyssmally
short range make me hesitant to field this behemoth. To put it
simply, when *can* I use it?
I hope that some light may come of this discussion.
Chaplain Alan O'David
Ultramarines Fourth Battle Company
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Vanquisher? We may only dream. . (0 Replies). GreyGriffin[]. 10/30/2001
15:43 (10/30/2001
15:43)
Whoops. I meant Vindicator.
I have to stop these joint operations. *rubs is head* Those Guard
commanders...all thinking
about nothing but their tanks.
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Rhinos, razorbacks, predator variants and more... . (2 Replies).
BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 10/30/2001 18:12 (10/31/2001 6:27)
Greetings Brother!
Excellent topic you bring up :-)
Part of it has been covered some, you asked when is it useful
to have the full ten man tactical
squad in a rhino, you may wish to check out
> the role of tactical squads..... BloodAngelBrotherEdward (10/29/2001
13:05).
it is up near the beginning of the thread :-)
Now on to the use of razorbacks and other rhino variants!
Baal Predator and Predator Annihilator - love'em love'em love'em.
I use the Baal Pred against
troop heavy armies, I take the predator annihilator when I need
some anti armor punch. The
problems you touched on - I really hate relying upon something
(anything really) that can be
taken out with one luck shot... Therefore I depend upon the survivability
of my army as a
whole by taking as many "wounds" as possible - as of late I've
been considering taking a
devastator squad to help cover the fire support role in my army
(will write more on this in the
months to come). Now having said this the predator variants are
still useful from time to time -
but I've found I have to lower my hopes/expectations about what
they do. I plan on them not
living past turn three, and I will have one or two things I want
them to destroy (hopefully their
points worth at least!) and then when they leave us I know they
did their job.
The Vindicator - I have one, but have not used it much honestly,
but I'm beginning to think of
using it in more like w whirlwind - parking somewhere and seeing
what it can hit on the
following turns. It has the additional value (much as a whirlwind
I should think) in that it is
something that the enemy will want to destroy as quickly as possible
and this does give us an
advantage in that now we know where at least some of the enemy's
firing will be aimed - it is
up to us to make the most of that moment (hope they miss) and
see what our own firing and
assaults can do while they shoot at the vindicator. These are
just conceptual thoughts mind
you (aka never done it before) so give this however much (or
little) credence as you see fit :-)
With that I will leave the podium for others to tell us more of
their thoughts on these subjects. I
would also welcome more of a discussion about Landraider tactics.
Who takes them? Why
do you take them? In which capacity to you take them? What are
your targets, what units to
you carry in them etc etc etc
I look forward to hearing from my battle brothers!
Glory to the Emperor ~ Brother Edward
>> This post has brought up a facet of combat hat I feel hasn't
been adequately covered.
Dreadnought performance has been adequately detailed (and Captain
Idaeus is busy ordering
a refitting of ours as we speak), and the Land Raider has been
discussed in passing. However,
there has not been much said on the Rhino variant tanks, the
Predators, the Vanquisher, and
the Razorback.
>>
>> Of these, which do you prefer? Obviously, the Razorback is
a formidable weapon when
combined with a small, powerful squad, like devastators or even
close combat veterans in a
small battle, but when are the extra four men a favorable option
over the increased firepower?
>>
>> The Predators obviously are formidable tanks, amongst the
heaviest armoured vehicles
that the Imperium has to offer. The two variants have obvious
purposes, but when faced with
sponson options, is it best to specialize, or diversify? And
agaist what opponent is it best to
have which Predator, specifically when faced with inadequate
intelligence as to the enemy's
force composition?
>>
>> And, to put it frankly, is the Vanquisher EVER worth its weight?
The sheer volume of
firepower that it offers makes it tempting, but its comparatively
light armour and abyssmally
short range make me hesitant to field this behemoth. To put it
simply, when *can* I use it?
>>
>> I hope that some light may come of this discussion.
>>
>> Chaplain Alan O'David
>> Ultramarines Fourth Battle Company
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RE: Rhinos, razorbacks, predator variants and more... . (1 Replies). GreyGriffin[].
10/31/2001 6:22 (10/31/2001 6:27)
Ah, now the Land Raider is a vehicle with which I have had a
great deal of experience...at
least so far.
The Land Raider, as is obvious, has two core roles. One is as
a formidable troop transport.
Its second is as a powerful (and nigh impervious) weapons platform.
However, to properly
employ the Land Raider, you must utilize BOTH roles.
At first glance, the use of the Land Raider as a transport is
glaringly obvious. Its capacity to
carry Terminators, along with its (to say the least) impressive
armour makes it ideal for
carrying expensive squads into battle. When the devotion of forces
of our esteemed company
merits the use of a Land Raider, I personally use one to carry
myself into battle. Its
deployment points (at the front and sides) make it an ideal staging
device for an assault, and
the Machine Spirit assures its implacable advance.
However, one tempting, but less obvious, facet of the Land Raider
is its role in dishing out
damage, and casualties. At first, its array of armaments seems
clumsy, to say the least. A twin
linked heavy bolter and two twin linked lascannons make for a
formidable Tank hunter, but
only of moderate use against infantry, which is what the Land
Raider will inevitably face in its
role as a transport. This seemigly clumsy array of weapons often
diverts many commmanders
(at least in the sector that I most often battle in) from employing
the formidable Land Raider to
its full capacity.
However, contrary to popular belief, it is an expense is not wasted.
The ideal target for a
Land Raider is NOT a tank, NOR common infantry. The ideal target
for the Land Raider are
elite or Headquarters units. Its formidable array of weaponry,
all of exceptional strength, is
able to spew a surprising capacity of fire, perfectly suited
for picking off smaller, but rock hard
enemy units. The Lascannons nigh assure kills against Terminator
Armour usurped by traitor
legions, and against all but the most sturdy of infantry retinues,
whilst the Heavy Bolters
provide a volume of oft penetrating fire. Whilst the passengers
of the Land Raider dispose of
the screening units of the enemy commanders, the Land Raider
itself should be softening up
the true targets of the assault for the ultimate kill. I find
this tactic, though placing the Land
Raider in a precarious position deep within enemy territory and
within fire of a multitude of
heavy weapons, an ultimately rewarding endeavor. The Land Raider's
incredible fortitude
(save against the weapons of the accursed Eldar) more often than
not is its saving grace.
One other oft overlooked tactic is to Tank Shock, with the Land
Raider, THROUGH
screening troops, to cut enemy coherency and clear a path for
both weapons fire and assault
through to the core of the enemy's Headquarters. Granted, the
Land Raider is something that
is hard to move "out of the way," but once a firing corridor
is opened, devastator squads can
provide a much-needed punch to the now vulnerable core of the
enemy, whilst tactical squads
and other fire support can wipe out the incoherent (and thus
virtually immobilized) enemy
troops.
I have had a great deal of success in employuing these tactics....whether
through luck or
otherwise, I am not sure. I speak only from experience.
I hope I have been of help.
Chaplain Alan O'David
Ultramarines Fourth Battle Company
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RE: RE: Rhinos, razorbacks, predator variants and more... . (0 Replies).
GreyGriffin[]. 10/31/2001 6:27 (10/31/2001 6:27)
For the sake of completeness, I must emphasize the fact that
against Orks, the above tactics
suffer a reduced effectiveness without a great deal of effective
fire support, and against
Necrons place a much, MUCH higher risk to the Land Raider itself
reardless of other
circumstances.
Chaplain Alan O'David
Ultramarines Fourth Battle Company
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bump (nt) . (2 Replies). ender[].
10/30/2001 11:52 (10/30/2001 14:36)
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RE: bump (nt) . (1 Replies). mwdalrymple[].
10/30/2001 12:18 (10/30/2001 14:36)
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RE: RE: bump (nt) . (0 Replies).
mwdalrymple[]. 10/30/2001 14:36 (10/30/2001 14:36)
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