DA Tactical Thread (Input please) littlepurplemonkey.
       RE: DA Tactical Thread (Input please) Nogdred (2/20/2002 9:00). 
           Oh sign me up - I'm interested :-) BloodAngelBrotherEdward (2/20/2002 9:15). 
       army composition concepts (long) bodycount (2/20/2002 9:31). 
       oh well, there goes another tactical thread : ( bodycount (2/20/2002 10:12). 
           :( - thnx for your input though - cmon answer guys - please! littlepurplemonkey (2/20/2002
 11:13). 
               RE: :( - thnx for your input though - cmon answer guys - please! micahmbg (2/20/2002
 11:49). 
               bumps for the bump god BloodAngelBrotherEdward (2/28/2002 7:25). 
       my DA tactics aurion (2/20/2002 12:19). 
           anyone...Beuller? aurion (2/20/2002 13:41). 
               RE: anyone...Beuller? micahmbg (2/20/2002 14:36). 
           an important principle bodycount (2/21/2002 5:42). 
               RE: an important principle aurion (2/21/2002 9:20). 
       back to the front with this one! :-) BloodAngelBrotherEdward (2/20/2002 16:02). 
           angels, unite : ))) bodycount (2/21/2002 7:58). 
               greetings brothers! :-) BloodAngelBrotherEdward (2/21/2002 23:54). 
       Things that go bump in the night. (NT) (NT) littlepurplemonkey (2/20/2002 17:56). 
       RE: DA Tactical Thread (Input please) danimalicious (2/20/2002 21:13). 
           a reply... aurion (2/21/2002 2:17). 
               RE: Scout w/Shotguns smailliwat (2/24/2002 20:47). 
                   RE: Scout w/Shotguns bodycount (2/25/2002 5:17). 
           on deathwing and other issues bodycount (2/21/2002 4:22). 
               ASK ME WHAT U WANNA KNOW (NT) doomangel (2/21/2002 5:48). 
               RE: on deathwing and other issues littlepurplemonkey (2/21/2002 8:27). 
                   thunder strike bodycount (2/21/2002 9:09). 
                       RE: thunder strike aurion (2/21/2002 9:31). 
                   RE: RE: on deathwing and other issues blackbone (3/4/2002 15:28). 
               RE: on deathwing and other issues danimalicious (2/21/2002 21:02). 
                   tactical dreadnought armor for ICs bodycount (2/22/2002 4:17). 
                       RE: tactical dreadnought armor for ICs littlepurplemonkey (2/22/2002 7:56). 
                           oh well, my bad : ))) bodycount (2/22/2002 8:25). 
       c'mon, we need your ideas (that and a bump : ))) (NT) bodycount (2/21/2002 11:43). 
       DA standards... aurion (2/21/2002 11:44). 
           RE: DA standards... xvr (2/25/2002 10:50). 
               the righteous retribution ... bodycount (2/25/2002 11:27). 
       My thoughts on the RavenWing erdagon (2/21/2002 15:02). 
           we need more ideas on RW bodycount (2/22/2002 3:48). 
               like all things , it depends on your opponent . erdagon (2/22/2002 10:07). 
       OH MY GOD!! Sydney!!.....did you hear that?!?!?! it went BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (NT) Broadsider
 (2/21/2002 15:40). 
       Just another bump. (NT) littlepurplemonkey (2/21/2002 19:00). 
       OK, Tactics... tactics... hmmm... tactics? (long) Drazden (2/21/2002 20:19). 
           artificer armor and psychic hood - do they really work that well ? bodycount (2/22/2002 5:22).
               the other option... aurion (2/22/2002 8:43). 
                   that's an idea ... bodycount (2/22/2002 10:12). 
                       Artificer armour erdagon (2/22/2002 10:45). 
                   nice idea!!! nt (NT) sutek (3/5/2002 0:42). 
           *sigh* All right Drazden (2/22/2002 15:56). 
               white, as in deathwing ... bodycount (2/23/2002 7:00). 
               White armour , eh ? erdagon (2/23/2002 10:44). 
           RE: OK, Tactics... tactics... hmmm... tactics? (long) blackbone (3/4/2002 16:22). 
               Come again ? erdagon (3/5/2002 0:22). 
       Novice's Strategy boltgunfire (2/21/2002 22:41). 
           hey, whats that? a bump!! (NT) Thomo (2/22/2002 5:07). 
               Huh? (NT) boltgunfire (2/22/2002 18:11). 
       an army list (guess what, DW included :) bodycount (2/22/2002 9:58). 
           My vision on this . erdagon (2/22/2002 10:33). 
               oh my - questions about Blood Angels? BloodAngelBrotherEdward (2/22/2002 10:52). 
           RE: an army list (guess what, DW included :) blackbone (3/4/2002 16:37). 
               Ah , the Razorback erdagon (3/5/2002 0:28). 
                   RE: Ah , the Razorback blackbone (3/5/2002 12:26). 
       Givin it "ze" boot (NT) erdagon (2/22/2002 15:24). 
       Review this DA army please Broadsider (2/22/2002 18:21). 
           a 1500pt DA tourney Army doomangel (2/22/2002 20:33). 
               lemme see . erdagon (2/23/2002 3:33). 
               another rewiev ... bodycount (2/23/2002 9:09). 
                   a tactical concept ... bodycount (2/24/2002 7:56). 
                       Some small suggestions . erdagon (2/24/2002 8:40). 
                       RE: a tactical concept ... littlepurplemonkey (2/24/2002 9:32). 
           a review ... bodycount (2/23/2002 8:11). 
       Givin it the ole' one two punch!!!!1 (NT) Broadsider (2/22/2002 22:29). 
           one word doomangel (2/22/2002 23:52). 
       I wonder where the GW DA specialist are . erdagon (2/23/2002 3:36). 
       My Army Thomo (2/23/2002 5:04).
           reviewing erdagon (2/23/2002 10:59). 
               RE: reviewing Thomo (2/24/2002 0:44). 
                   Uh , I forgot . erdagon (2/24/2002 3:24). 
           RE: My Army micahmbg (2/23/2002 11:04). 
       My really bad army list. :) littlepurplemonkey (2/23/2002 16:58). 
           Here goes erdagon (2/23/2002 20:36). 
               Thanks littlepurplemonkey (2/24/2002 14:55). 
       One small bump for man...... (NT) littlepurplemonkey (2/24/2002 17:25). 
           ...... but one big BUMP for mankind (NT) erdagon (2/25/2002 4:05). 
       Could you wise Grandmasters review this? Yaj (2/25/2002 7:00). 
           we could ; ))) bodycount (2/25/2002 8:27). 
           Thanks, bodycount!!, anymore? BUMP!!(NT) Yaj (2/25/2002 10:05). 
           Not sure if I'm wise , but anyway ...... erdagon (2/25/2002 12:30). 
               important question on force selection ... bodycount (2/25/2002 15:53). 
                   RE: important question on force selection ... GrandmasterUlysses (2/25/2002 16:15). 
                       welcome ... bodycount (2/25/2002 16:32). 
                   I don't know if you can count this as official but ...... erdagon (2/25/2002 23:59). 
       bumps for the bump god :-) BloodAngelBrotherEdward (2/26/2002 5:26). 
           and on the subject of nurgle ... bodycount (2/26/2002 5:39). 
               nurgle is just first :-) BloodAngelBrotherEdward (2/26/2002 14:07). 
                   A quick couple o' things (plus another boot to the front ;) irskin (3/8/2002 21:16). 
       Bodycount , do you think we're the only two DA Tactical masterminds ? ( and a free BUMP
 ofcourse) erdagon (2/26/2002 11:42). 
           I know this isn't meant for me, but littlepurplemonkey (2/26/2002 12:32). 
               Thanks . :) erdagon (2/26/2002 13:35). 
                   back on the thread ... bodycount (2/28/2002 7:27). 
       RE: DA Tactical Thread (Input please) danimalicious (2/26/2002 11:53). 
           RE: RE: DA Tactical Thread (Input please) littlepurplemonkey (2/26/2002 12:38). 
           a bag of tricks ... bodycount (2/28/2002 18:25). 
               Tricky indeed erdagon (2/28/2002 23:47). 
                   about the undead ... bodycount (3/1/2002 5:06). 
                       You're right . Almost . :p erdagon (3/1/2002 11:42). 
                           plasma frenzy ... bodycount (3/4/2002 3:52). 
       RE: DA Tactical Thread (Input please) deathdroidMK (2/26/2002 12:41). 
           Blood Angels trouble , eh ? erdagon (2/26/2002 13:30). 
               RE: Blood Angels trouble , eh ? deathdroidMK (2/27/2002 12:40). 
           reply aurion (2/26/2002 14:22). 
               ignore this im just posting so i can find the dang thread again my computer messed up
 (NT) irskin (3/8/2002 19:15). 
       What's our best HQ choice? Drazden (2/26/2002 16:54). 
           GM w Term Armor, Storm Bolter, and SoS (NT) aurion (2/26/2002 17:31). 
           best hq choice ? erdagon (2/27/2002 5:41). 
       Repent for Tommorow you Die!!!! Masterofthedeathwing (2/26/2002 18:09). 
           RE: Repent for Tommorow you Die!!!! danimalicious (2/26/2002 19:32). 
               twinlinked = 2kills ? No way . erdagon (2/26/2002 23:48). 
                   RE: twinlinked = 2kills ? No way . danimalicious (2/27/2002 10:55). 
                       I know . erdagon (2/27/2002 11:30). 
           A word in your ear ..... erdagon (2/26/2002 23:59). 
               RE: A word in your ear ..... Masterofthedeathwing (2/27/2002 17:18). 
                   I see . erdagon (2/28/2002 0:01). 
       Uhhhhh *BUMP* :)(N/T) Masterofthedeathwing (2/27/2002 8:40). 
       Confusion over Command Squads... Yaj (2/27/2002 8:41). 
           RE: Confusion over Command Squads... littlepurplemonkey (2/27/2002 11:13). 
           the Tac squad it is . erdagon (2/27/2002 11:56). 
           things have changed... aurion (2/27/2002 12:07). 
               RE: things have changed... danimalicious (2/27/2002 12:29). 
                   ravenwing goodness... aurion (2/27/2002 12:45). 
                       RE: ravenwing goodness... littlepurplemonkey (2/27/2002 12:59). 
                           RE: RE: ravenwing goodness... aurion (2/27/2002 13:29). 
                   RW command squads erdagon (2/27/2002 13:09). 
       Deathwing Armies... aurion (2/27/2002 13:35). 
           Deathwing Army erdagon (2/28/2002 0:08). 
       a bump for stewardofgondor, your newest Dark Angel (NT) BloodAngelBrotherEdward
 (2/27/2002 15:28). 
       RE: DA Tactical Thread (Input please) Glorfindel_888 (2/27/2002 17:48). 
       RE: DA Tactical Thread (Input please) Glorfindel_888 (2/28/2002 2:17). 
           a couple of thoughts (rivendell style, i guess ; ) bodycount (2/28/2002 10:18). 
               RE: a couple of thoughts (rivendell style, i guess ; ) Glorfindel_888 (2/28/2002 12:50). 
       Termie Sgt. Question littlepurplemonkey (2/28/2002 10:11). 
           RE: Termie Sgt. Question aurion (2/28/2002 10:47). 
           Termie Sgt. Answer bodycount (2/28/2002 10:46). 
           Termie Sgt. answer erdagon (2/28/2002 11:01). 
           RE: Termie Sgt. Question Glorfindel_888 (2/28/2002 13:44). 
               Don't know how official this is but ...... erdagon (2/28/2002 14:47). 
                   RE: Don't know how official this is but ...... Glorfindel_888 (3/1/2002 1:25). 
       2000 Ravenwing army list danimalicious (3/1/2002 2:05). 
           RE: 2000 Ravenwing army list irskin (3/8/2002 22:58). 
       Ravenwing characters danimalicious (3/1/2002 2:06). 
           RE: Ravenwing characters danimalicious (3/1/2002 2:24). 
               Good news for ya . erdagon (3/1/2002 11:37). 
       Thanks for all your responses! littlepurplemonkey (3/1/2002 13:45). 
       Is this too cheesy? Rate the cheese Glorfindel_888 (3/2/2002 15:19). 
           RE: Is this too cheesy? Rate the cheese Glorfindel_888 (3/2/2002 18:53). 
               Cheesy ? I thought you said that cheese doesn't excist . :p erdagon (3/3/2002 5:31). 
                   RE: Cheesy ? I thought you said that cheese doesn't excist . :p Glorfindel_888
 (3/3/2002 12:12). 
       Anyone know a quick way to save this thread? zeusss (3/3/2002 19:52). 
           RE: Isn't it called a bump iwantmyk (3/4/2002 1:05). 
           RE: Anyone know a quick way to save this thread? erdagon (3/4/2002 3:35). 
               Thanks Erdagon! And Brother Edward for hosting it! (NT) zeusss (3/5/2002 2:08). 
       RE: DA Tactical Thread (Input please) blackbone (3/4/2002 16:09). 
           True , but ...... erdagon (3/5/2002 0:45). 
       Recovered from page11 (in other words BUMP) (NT) erdagon (3/6/2002 12:55). 
           Ravenwing IC revisted! danimalicious (3/7/2002 2:34). 
       2 army lists for review danimalicious (3/8/2002 3:08). 
       Aaaah! What's that? It's a-a-a.... *Bump* Drazden (3/8/2002 10:25). 
       Could someone plz review my 2 lists thomo (3/8/2002 20:37). 
       Here's what I've got... irskin (3/8/2002 20:44). 
       Have a BUMP and a question on the top! irskin (3/8/2002 23:36). 
           Ah , Plasma death erdagon (3/9/2002 1:06). 
           blast 'em ! : ) bodycount (3/9/2002 5:07). 
       Speeder Question thomo (3/9/2002 5:43). 
           all depends on the point allowance ... bodycount (3/9/2002 6:35). 
           Ah , the RavenWing erdagon (3/9/2002 8:39). 
           RE: Speeder Question littlepurplemonkey (3/9/2002 9:01). 
               thank YOU first of all ... bodycount (3/9/2002 10:35). 
       A random quandry... irskin (3/9/2002 9:04). 
           translation ... bodycount (3/9/2002 10:24). 
               RE: translation ... irskin (3/9/2002 10:34). 
                   on names sources ... bodycount (3/9/2002 10:50). 
                       how many of you ... bodycount (3/9/2002 12:46). 
                           I think I've seen that book... irskin (3/9/2002 20:15). 
                               that elusive koth ridge ... bodycount (3/10/2002 4:39). 
       I'll probably be killed byyou for saying this but....are Dark Angels good?? Bologs (3/9/2002
 12:53). 
           a bit, i guess : ))) bodycount (3/9/2002 13:39). 
               Zeke for PM! :) littlepurplemonkey (3/9/2002 14:05). 
       ...I think it's finally just about dead... (NT) irskin (3/9/2002 23:14). 
           not dead yet! danimalicious (3/12/2002 2:11). 
               hard to kill, are we : ))) bodycount (3/12/2002 15:33). 
       Question about Lion Helm Glorfindel_888 (3/12/2002 12:19). 
           lion king : ))) bodycount (3/12/2002 15:44). 
       A second Question Glorfindel_888 (3/12/2002 14:56). 
           *all smiles* bodycount (3/12/2002 15:56). 
               RE: *all smiles* Glorfindel_888 (3/12/2002 18:04). 
                   see you on friday bodycount (3/12/2002 20:53). 
                   hey glorfindel, you out there? anybody else? bodycount (3/15/2002 5:58). 
       Still alive (barely) littlepurplemonkey (3/15/2002 11:19). 
           RE: Still alive (barely) danimalicious (3/15/2002 11:36). 
       Still here. WOO 200th post in this thread! Glorfindel_888 (3/15/2002 13:59). 
           ah, there you are ... bodycount (3/15/2002 18:08). 
               RE: ah, there you are ... Glorfindel_888 (3/16/2002 14:06). 
       littlepurplemonkey does a dance.... littlepurplemonkey (3/17/2002 17:09). 
           WHAT ?! : ))) LPM - i love you 'bro ... bodycount (3/17/2002 17:46). 
       Special characters revisited. littlepurplemonkey (3/18/2002 11:21). 
       Here goes mine... Too cheesy??? Melkaia (3/18/2002 12:08). 
 
 

  DA Tactical Thread (Input please) . (206 Replies). littlepurplemonkey[]. 2/20/2002 8:53 (3/18/2002 12:08) 
 Hello, could you Dark Angels guys give me some general tactical advice and force
 composition advice please.
 Thanks. 
 Reply 
 Back To Thread Navigation 
 
 

       RE: DA Tactical Thread (Input please) . (1 Replies). Nogdred[]. 2/20/2002 9:00 (2/20/2002 9:15) 
 >> Hello, could you Dark Angels guys give me some general tactical advice and force
 composition advice please.
 >> Thanks.

 What sort of points value?? 
 Reply 
 Back To Thread Navigation 
 
 

           Oh sign me up - I'm interested :-) . (0 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 2/20/2002 9:15
 (2/20/2002 9:15) 

 >> What sort of points value??

 Hello everyone!

 I must admit I do not know enough about the Dark Angels! I have the codex right here - but
 seeing as how I've never played them (nor seen them used firsthand) and ESPECIALLY since
 they just revamped the rules recently - I'd really like to hear your thoughts on general Dark
 Angel strengths and weaknesses. Go ahead and shoot for the 1500pt armies, and feel free to
 dive deep into tactics - I'll try my best to keep up :-)

 I look forward to seeing this thread develop :-)

 Glory to the Emperor and Sanguinius ~ Brother Edward

 Reply 
 Back To Thread Navigation 
 
 

       army composition concepts (long) . (0 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/20/2002 9:31 (2/20/2002 9:31) 
 ok. here's my old post (so some may have well seen it already) but i think it'll fit the thread
 nicely (free bump included ;)))

 anyways, some of my rumblings about army composition concepts, with a spotlight cast on
 tactical squads. hope you enjoy it.

 you'll hear a lot of people say dark angels are a shooty army. i think there are two main
 reasons for that: the previous version of the intractable rule and the relative (compared to
 templars, wolves or blood angels) lack of an overwhelming HtH punch - like specialist units or
 weapon options (deathwing notwithstanding).

 dark angels also have as good fire power as any space marine army (hit on 3+, a wide range
 of firearms available). but also - as any space marines - they are tough, with solid WS, S and
 T, and of course 3+ armor save, so you can safely bet that they will fare in HtH just as well as
 in the shooting phase. last but not least, with the stubborn rule, you have an option to field
 "unbreakable" units.

 now, as the intractable rule is changed DA will -IMHO - appear more clearly for what i've
 been thinking of them all along - a multi purpose force, one that is equally capable of filling it in
 both long, and close ranges. therefore the task of a dark angels commander is to properly
 identify when to engage in a firefight and when to charge into a melee. and, of course, to use
 good tactics to achieve the maximum effectiveness of both.

 i like the "two swords" comparison - it takes more time to learn how to balance and wield
 them with skill, but once you do, you will always have an advantage over your opponents,
 possessing more tools to win the day than they have.

 and what other DA unit (or any SM unit for that matter) fits the “two swords” approach better
 than a tactical squad? they posses several advantages, like access to cheap heavy weapons,
 different transport options, vet sarge and his gear/stubborn rule, that make them ideal to
 effectively carry out almost every task you assign them on the battlefield: screen other troops,
 provide fire support, advance or head for an armored assault.

 i like to get as many tac sqds as possible. these basically fall into two categories: assault teams
 or fire support teams.

 assault-oriented tac squads need to be 10-strong. period. you cannot overestimate the
 numbers role in HtH. give them an assault weapon to add some punch to their pre-charging
 fire. i usually go for the meltagun, but against swarm armies you may feel a flamer is more like
 it. basically the melta gives you anti-armor and instant kill capabilities - and since you want to
 close with the enemy that may be useful. the flamer on the other hand is perfect for
 pre-charging fire as it offers target selection where you get to pick who's toast :))). always give
 the assault team frags, never bother with the kraks (at least as a general rule ;). if you decide
 you want to add a vet sarge to boost HtH capabilities of the unit remember about the point
 cost. a vet sarge is already a 30 pts investment with just a single wound. if you start piling
 weapons/wargear on him you may end up having a 1-wound character worth 60 points. my
 vet sarge either gets a power weapon (46 pts in total) or rarely a power fist/storm shield
 combo to offer some much-needed protection (it is 66 pts, but he gets an inv. 4+ save against
 1 opponent in HtH - usually armed with a power weapon or fist).

 my assault-oriented tac squads always ride in rhinos. extra armor and smokers for the grand
 total of 58 points - usually a safe bet to charge by turn 2.

 the other crucial type of tac squad is a fire support team. ideally 6 to 8 strong, with a missile
 launcher. the number of fire teams, and their equipment, depend on points distribution within
 your force. if you have enough heavy fire power elsewhere (dreadnoughts, vehicles,
 devastators) you’ll tend to take less tac squads for fire support purposes. i like to have
 100-point teams of 6 marines (sarge with bolter, 1 marine with a missile launcher). these can
 be expanded and modified (ie. add a plasma gun or extra marines), but i usually go with a
 cheap (100 pts) version and as many of such squads as possible for one main reason - i often
 use them to screen my other troops’ position or block the advance of enemy units. heck, they
 can even screen each other.

 in this way you are perfectly able to set up kill zones and drag your opponent into suicidal
 assaults. if he sweeping advances he buys it, if he consolidates - he buys it. and against certain
 units that have to sweeping advance you don’t even have to worry about 4-inch spacing
 between your units. of course this is not as easy as it sounds - if your opponent gets to charge
 several units at once then the small firing teams get the chop most of the time. but with proper
 shot selection, concentration of fire and taking out enemy transports they have a great
 opportunity to blast any opposition to bits.

 once the enemy has been purged with fire it’s time to administer the righteous retribution up
 close and personal and the DA characters come with 4 basic attacks. damn. IMHO if an A4
 model doesn't get into HtH it's a waste of points. so my leaders usually get a cmd squad and a
 transport. the alternative is an independent character on a bike or with a jump pack. but that
 means you either hide him behind other advancing units and he's going to support their assault
 or you need to look into getting an assault squad or ravenwing for the character to join.

 the obvious choice is a master or grandmaster. iron halo is a must. then - depending on the
 target: lighting claws or a power fist and bolt pistol. in case of a grand master, if the points
 allow it, the sword of secrets is always tempting. the next character of choice is a chaplain -
 coming with a power weapon and inv. save - yes, he's combat oriented (and point-eficient).
 librarians are tricky to use and expensive. so usually my last choice, although if a librarian with
 a command squad and weaken resolve power charges in, you can expect pretty good things
 to happen. and now that the librarian can have smite it adds to his versality.

 look carefully into cmd squad options - apothecary, techmarine and standard bearer are free
 upgrades that may be given weapons/wargear. that means you get an additional attack (bolt
 pistol and CCW) for a grand total of 2 points. nice. not to mention the time when my
 command squad wielded 5 power weapons. damn expensive (and not that much efficient) but
 fun.

 another way to utilise tac squads (or cmd. squads for that mater) is to create 6-men armored
 squads, riding in razorbacks. with that approach you will generally field between 4 to 6
 'backs, which gives a lot of mobile fire power that can be used for tank/transport busting. a
 mobile shooty force played to its strengths can be very difficult to contain.

 ok. so we have different configurations of tac squads (IMHO the main stay of any space
 marine army) and a an HQ or two (the command squad is essentially a tac squad with some
 extra options). remember about filling it in both long and close range? yes, that means we now
 get into some serious fire power, my two favorites being devastator squads and shooty
 dreadnoughts.

 a dev squad. sarge always gets a bolter and if the squad is in a razorback (TL lascan or lascan
 & TL plasma guns, don't take smokers- you want to shoot) i add a 6th marine, if not they are
 usually 7 or 8-strong. pick weapons according to target. and yes the razorback is a great
 addition - it assures that you get into a firing position in turn 1 and then it's a mobile firebase
 (vulnerable though - but hey, it takes fire off your other units). also, if your dev sqd ends up in
 reserves then a transport option will become vital to enter the battlefield and set up in the same
 turn.

 there is one more way to use devastators that I found useful - but it depends on army
 composition a lot. since a devastator and a tactical marine cost the same (weapon options
 notwithstanding) you can use them to create assault-teams or create more fire support teams
 (with 6 troops slots still open).

 finally the dreadnought. move six inches and fire two weapons - that is what you need for
 effective tank hunting and forcing advancing enemy units to change their position. armor 12
 gives you decent staying power. i always take the missile launcher upgrade, usually combined
 with TL lascans or an autocannon (taking weapons with the same range allows you to max out
 on fire power).

 these are IMHO the basic army composition concepts for the DA. once grasped, you are at a
 perfect position to expand, adding units that will boost your tac sqds capabilities - assault
 squads, ravenwing, deathwing, scouts. but unless playing an all DW or RW army, I have
 found that tac squads and that "two swords" approach is the ultimate winner.

 good hunting,

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum 
 Reply 
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       oh well, there goes another tactical thread : ( . (3 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/20/2002 10:12 (2/28/2002
 7:25) 
 
 

 Reply 
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           :( - thnx for your input though - cmon answer guys - please! . (2 Replies).
 littlepurplemonkey[]. 2/20/2002 11:13 (2/28/2002 7:25) 

 Reply 
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               RE: :( - thnx for your input though - cmon answer guys - please! . (0 Replies). micahmbg[].
 2/20/2002 11:49 (2/20/2002 11:49) 
 >> 

 Having played Dark Angels a lot I can offer some advice...
 Though Bodycount did a wonderful job! and didnt leave much out...

 But I do feel I can expand a bit perhaps...

 Dark Angels and 'Vanilla' marines have some similarties in that both are very versatile, but in
 my opinion, one thing that gives Dark Angels some oooomph is the stubborn ability/we won't
 fall back from shooting now abilty. This makes them ideal for take/hold missions as well as
 any mission where they have to go someplace on the board, and then not leave (Dawn
 Assault, Cleanse, Recon etc). My usuall strategy is to give my force Rhinos (Razorbacks as
 well) and spend the first turn moving to where I want/need my guys. Then I unload and sit.
 Granted this does not work for every mission, but for those missions it is grand. Space
 Marines are tough to move as is, fearless (thanks to stubborn) are even tougher. For this role I
 usually take a missile launcher and plasma gun in a 10 man squad, but if I can squeeze it in the
 points a plasma cannon (obviousoly just started this). Although not often thought of as the
 most mobile of armies (with the exception of the Ravenwing) I think that a force in Rhino's
 combined with some Ravenwing units makes for not only a very flexable/mobile force but it
 also makes what is not a close combat heavy army able to move up and assault quite well.
 Well, those are my two thoughts: oh and my army list:

 Librarian in terminator armor, lightning claw, storm bolter.
 -Command Section: 4 Marines with bolters
 -Mounted in 'normal' Land Raider

 (i know pricy when the LR is thrown in but wait and see the rest of the force :) )

 Tac Squad: 10, 7 bolters, 1 plasma gun, 1 missile launcher,Vet Sgt with power weapon and
 bolt pistol, mounted in a Rhino with extra armor and smoke launchers.

 Tac Squad: 10, 7 bolters, 1 plasma gun, 1 missile launcher, Sgt, mounted in a Rhino with extra
 armor and smoke launchers.

 Tac Squad: 6, 4 bolters, 1 melta gun, Vet Sgt with plasma pistol and close combat weapon,
 mounted in a Razorback with twin lascannons.

 Tac Squad: 6, 4 bolters, 1 plasma gun (may change to a flamer, though not sure), Vet Sgt with
 plasma pistol and close combat weapon, mounted in a Razorback with twin lascannons.

 Ravenwing Land Speeder Squadron: 2 speeders, 2 assault cannons. (fire support role)

 Vindicator Assault Tank

 Predator Ahnilator with lascannon sponsons.

 Total Force: 1700

 Best of luck to all 
 Micah

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               bumps for the bump god . (0 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 2/28/2002 7:25 (2/28/2002
 7:25) 
 bumps for the bump god 
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       my DA tactics . (4 Replies). aurion[]. 2/20/2002 12:19 (2/21/2002 9:20) 
 Well, here goes, I'll add my bit to this thread.

 Below is a brief synopsis of a "typical" list for me:

 HQ - Grand Master w/ Term Armor and Sword of Secrets

 TROOPS - 4x Tactical Squads (2 w/ Plasma Cannon/Plasmagun and 2 w/ Heavy
 Bolter/Meltagun) - All get Vet Sgts w/ Stubborn & Auspex

 FAST - Assault Squad w/ 2 Plasma Pistols & Stubborn Sgt w/ PWpn

 HEAVY - Dev Squad w/ 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Lascannon w/ Stubborn Sgt w/ Auspex

 That is around 1500 points. We usually play with 1700 so you will see a little more variety in
 the army. Usually a Whirlwind and a Predator Annihilator. All the squads are maxed out in
 size. We usually know the scenario ahead of time so we can prepare for that. Really sucks to
 show up to a Breakthrough with an infantry army. The most common scenario we play is
 Cleanse, hence the above list.

 Usually in a Cleanse mission I will stand still and shoot as much as possible for about 3 turns. I
 use the Assault Squad to intercept opponent's Fast Attack and keep them off my shooters.
 The Grand Master also fills that role, attacking the odd unit (such as summoned daemons or
 such) that makes it into my quadrant. I don't worry so much about eliminating squads as I do
 about reducing them below half strength to keep them from controlling quadrants.

 The Devs engage enemy armor, preferably Dreadnoughts and Transport vehicles, then switch
 to an anti-personnel role when necessary. If I am facing Imperial Guard with heavy tanks I will
 use the Assault Squad (which has Meltabombs) to get them (hopefully). I just have to break a
 hole in the enemy lines to do it. I usually don't bother shooting at the AV14 Lemans. It's not
 worth wasting a whole squad shooting to hopefully scratch the paint. If you take out the rest of
 his army the Lemans won't do him much good anyway.

 I used to put Missile Lauchers in my Tac Squads for anti-personnel templates but the Plasma
 Cannons now fill that role (much better I might add). I will concentrate firepower for the first
 three turns to take down as many enemy as I can at range. When I set up I place the my tac
 squads as close to the quadrant edges as I can (terrain and fire lanes allowing) so I can get
 across in one turn. Usually by the time I am crossing the enemy is close enough for me to
 shoot with my rapid fire weapons even on the move.

 Well, that's about it. My Dark Angels are about as shooty as you can get but I have enough
 models to field at least three Dreadnoughts plus Attack Bikes, Land Speeders, Terminators,
 Land Raiders, etc. Like I said, we usually know the scenario beforehand so I can tailor the
 army to meet my needs.

 Just last week I played 1700 points against Tyranids in a Cleanse mission and wiped out his
 army save for two Warrior squads he was using to hold table quarters (one of which I
 contested). I controlled two quarters hands down. In the game I lost only 6 models: my two
 plasma cannons blew themselves up (it happens), two models to acid blood (I don't think I've
 ever made an acid blood save, it's creepy), and two models to his attacks. I did have the
 Predator and Whirlwind to help in that game.

 And I am known to be the WORST roller in our gaming group. The dice gods hate me.

 Cheers and happy gaming,

 Aurion 
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           anyone...Beuller? . (1 Replies). aurion[]. 2/20/2002 13:41 (2/20/2002 14:36) 
 >> Well, here goes, I'll add my bit to this thread.
 >> 
 >> Below is a brief synopsis of a "typical" list for me:
 >> 
 >> HQ - Grand Master w/ Term Armor and Sword of Secrets
 >> 
 >> TROOPS - 4x Tactical Squads (2 w/ Plasma Cannon/Plasmagun and 2 w/ Heavy
 Bolter/Meltagun) - All get Vet Sgts w/ Stubborn & Auspex
 >> 
 >> FAST - Assault Squad w/ 2 Plasma Pistols & Stubborn Sgt w/ PWpn
 >> 
 >> HEAVY - Dev Squad w/ 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Lascannon w/ Stubborn Sgt w/
 Auspex
 >> 
 >> That is around 1500 points. We usually play with 1700 so you will see a little more variety
 in the army. Usually a Whirlwind and a Predator Annihilator. All the squads are maxed out in
 size. We usually know the scenario ahead of time so we can prepare for that. Really sucks to
 show up to a Breakthrough with an infantry army. The most common scenario we play is
 Cleanse, hence the above list.
 >> 
 >> Usually in a Cleanse mission I will stand still and shoot as much as possible for about 3
 turns. I use the Assault Squad to intercept opponent's Fast Attack and keep them off my
 shooters. The Grand Master also fills that role, attacking the odd unit (such as summoned
 daemons or such) that makes it into my quadrant. I don't worry so much about eliminating
 squads as I do about reducing them below half strength to keep them from controlling
 quadrants.
 >> 
 >> The Devs engage enemy armor, preferably Dreadnoughts and Transport vehicles, then
 switch to an anti-personnel role when necessary. If I am facing Imperial Guard with heavy
 tanks I will use the Assault Squad (which has Meltabombs) to get them (hopefully). I just have
 to break a hole in the enemy lines to do it. I usually don't bother shooting at the AV14
 Lemans. It's not worth wasting a whole squad shooting to hopefully scratch the paint. If you
 take out the rest of his army the Lemans won't do him much good anyway.
 >> 
 >> I used to put Missile Lauchers in my Tac Squads for anti-personnel templates but the
 Plasma Cannons now fill that role (much better I might add). I will concentrate firepower for
 the first three turns to take down as many enemy as I can at range. When I set up I place the
 my tac squads as close to the quadrant edges as I can (terrain and fire lanes allowing) so I can
 get across in one turn. Usually by the time I am crossing the enemy is close enough for me to
 shoot with my rapid fire weapons even on the move.
 >> 
 >> Well, that's about it. My Dark Angels are about as shooty as you can get but I have
 enough models to field at least three Dreadnoughts plus Attack Bikes, Land Speeders,
 Terminators, Land Raiders, etc. Like I said, we usually know the scenario beforehand so I
 can tailor the army to meet my needs.
 >> 
 >> Just last week I played 1700 points against Tyranids in a Cleanse mission and wiped out
 his army save for two Warrior squads he was using to hold table quarters (one of which I
 contested). I controlled two quarters hands down. In the game I lost only 6 models: my two
 plasma cannons blew themselves up (it happens), two models to acid blood (I don't think I've
 ever made an acid blood save, it's creepy), and two models to his attacks. I did have the
 Predator and Whirlwind to help in that game.
 >> 
 >> And I am known to be the WORST roller in our gaming group. The dice gods hate me.
 >> 
 >> Cheers and happy gaming,
 >> 
 >> Aurion 
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               RE: anyone...Beuller? . (0 Replies). micahmbg[]. 2/20/2002 14:36 (2/20/2002 14:36) 
 >> >> Well, here goes, I'll add my bit to this thread.
 >> >> 
 >> >> Below is a brief synopsis of a "typical" list for me:
 >> >> 
 >> >> HQ - Grand Master w/ Term Armor and Sword of Secrets
 >> >> 
 >> >> TROOPS - 4x Tactical Squads (2 w/ Plasma Cannon/Plasmagun and 2 w/ Heavy
 Bolter/Meltagun) - All get Vet Sgts w/ Stubborn & Auspex
 >> >> 
 >> >> FAST - Assault Squad w/ 2 Plasma Pistols & Stubborn Sgt w/ PWpn
 >> >> 
 >> >> HEAVY - Dev Squad w/ 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Lascannon w/ Stubborn Sgt w/
 Auspex
 >> >> 
 >> >> That is around 1500 points. We usually play with 1700 so you will see a little more
 variety in the army. Usually a Whirlwind and a Predator Annihilator. All the squads are maxed
 out in size. We usually know the scenario ahead of time so we can prepare for that. Really
 sucks to show up to a Breakthrough with an infantry army. The most common scenario we
 play is Cleanse, hence the above list.
 >> >> 
 >> >> Usually in a Cleanse mission I will stand still and shoot as much as possible for about 3
 turns. I use the Assault Squad to intercept opponent's Fast Attack and keep them off my
 shooters. The Grand Master also fills that role, attacking the odd unit (such as summoned
 daemons or such) that makes it into my quadrant. I don't worry so much about eliminating
 squads as I do about reducing them below half strength to keep them from controlling
 quadrants.
 >> >> 
 >> >> The Devs engage enemy armor, preferably Dreadnoughts and Transport vehicles, then
 switch to an anti-personnel role when necessary. If I am facing Imperial Guard with heavy
 tanks I will use the Assault Squad (which has Meltabombs) to get them (hopefully). I just have
 to break a hole in the enemy lines to do it. I usually don't bother shooting at the AV14
 Lemans. It's not worth wasting a whole squad shooting to hopefully scratch the paint. If you
 take out the rest of his army the Lemans won't do him much good anyway.
 >> >> 
 >> >> I used to put Missile Lauchers in my Tac Squads for anti-personnel templates but the
 Plasma Cannons now fill that role (much better I might add). I will concentrate firepower for
 the first three turns to take down as many enemy as I can at range. When I set up I place the
 my tac squads as close to the quadrant edges as I can (terrain and fire lanes allowing) so I can
 get across in one turn. Usually by the time I am crossing the enemy is close enough for me to
 shoot with my rapid fire weapons even on the move.
 >> >> 
 >> >> Well, that's about it. My Dark Angels are about as shooty as you can get but I have
 enough models to field at least three Dreadnoughts plus Attack Bikes, Land Speeders,
 Terminators, Land Raiders, etc. Like I said, we usually know the scenario beforehand so I
 can tailor the army to meet my needs.
 >> >> 
 >> >> Just last week I played 1700 points against Tyranids in a Cleanse mission and wiped
 out his army save for two Warrior squads he was using to hold table quarters (one of which I
 contested). I controlled two quarters hands down. In the game I lost only 6 models: my two
 plasma cannons blew themselves up (it happens), two models to acid blood (I don't think I've
 ever made an acid blood save, it's creepy), and two models to his attacks. I did have the
 Predator and Whirlwind to help in that game.
 >> >> 
 >> >> And I am known to be the WORST roller in our gaming group. The dice gods hate
 me.
 >> >> 
 >> >> Cheers and happy gaming,
 >> >> 
 >> >> Aurion

 Looks good...might suffer from some problems should it have to assault a strong point or
 something, but like you said, you can swap units to fit the mission...
 good job
 Micah 
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           an important principle . (1 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/21/2002 5:42 (2/21/2002 9:20) 
 >> Usually in a Cleanse mission ... I don't worry so much about eliminating squads as I do
 about reducing them below half strength to keep them from controlling quadrants.

 preceisely ... that is an important but often overlooked principle - you don't have to kill things
 to contain their threat. in your avarege 40k battle you'll see people trying to blast/chop enemy
 units instead of neutralizing threats they pose.

 >> I used to put Missile Lauchers in my Tac Squads for anti-personnel templates but the
 Plasma Cannons now fill that role (much better I might add). 

 ha - that's my favourite debate lately. missile launcher or plasma cannon? what do i give to my
 tac squads? well, i have to say that i like to stick with the ol' good ML for several reasons. no
 1 is 48" range. not only that means you have larger control zone (area in which you can
 engage the enemy) but also it offers great protection for your tac squad (yes, range is a good
 measure of protection).

 secondly IMHO it offers unmatched versality being able to provide tank busting capability,
 anti-infantry punch and may be usedto instant kill T4. finally it's just 10 pts.

 i do recognize the value of the plasma cannon but i treat it as a "special" weapon, rather than
 standard issue. a clasic weapon of choice against SM or CSM armies though ;)

 >> I lost ... and two models to his attacks.

 against 'nids ?! oh brother *all smiles*

 >> And I am known to be the WORST roller in our gaming group. The dice gods hate me.

 "be blessed, the gracious powers of snake eyes and boxed cars, and let aurion roll his way to
 glory"

 happy rolling,

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum 
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               RE: an important principle . (0 Replies). aurion[]. 2/21/2002 9:20 (2/21/2002 9:20) 
 >> preceisely ... that is an important but often overlooked principle - you don't have to kill
 things to contain their threat. in your avarege 40k battle you'll see people trying to blast/chop
 enemy units instead of neutralizing threats they pose.
 >> 

 Which is why it is so easy to beat the Blood Angel, Space Wolf, World Eater, Tyranid type
 armies around here. Those players seem to be the greatest subscribers to the "kill them all"
 theory of 40k. I think part of it has to do with playing the strengths of their armies but then
 they get a little too wrapped up in the "charge-charge-charge" mentality.

 I do have a complete Space Wolf army still in the boxes/blisters and am looking forward to
 putting them together when I am finished painting my Dark Angels. I also have an undefeated
 Ork army that gets SERIOUSLY underestimated and really bites people in the butt when they
 are not careful. Funny thing is that my Orks are even more shooty than my Dark Angels. And
 I have a better win score with them.

 My biggest problem with my DA is their relative lack of mobility. I am not a big fan of putting
 Rhinos in my tac squads and I don't have any veterans to use them with. I usually depend too
 much on the odd assault squad, attack bike, or land speeder for mobile support but
 occasionally (as with a rescue mission I played a coupla weeks ago) that is not enough. The
 rescue mission was a draw because I couldn't run my tac squad from a daemon prince fast
 enough and he was able to assault and kill the token bearer on the final turn.

 >> >> I used to put Missile Lauchers in my Tac Squads for anti-personnel templates but the
 Plasma Cannons now fill that role (much better I might add). 
 >> 
 >> ha - that's my favourite debate lately. missile launcher or plasma cannon? what do i give to
 my tac squads? well, i have to say that i like to stick with the ol' good ML for several reasons.

 >> 

 The missile launcher IS an excellent choice for the tac squad. I really like the scare value of the
 plasma cannon, though. It draws a lot of attention from my devs and ridiculously vulnerable
 tanks and dreadnoughts. Plus when I can get multi-wound models (such as thousand sons)
 under the template I can usually cause more than one wound to the squad and the opponent
 has to remove whole models anyway. I can usually kill off a TSon and still have a wound on
 the squad remaining for next turns shot.

 >> secondly IMHO it offers unmatched versality being able to provide tank busting capability,
 anti-infantry punch and may be usedto instant kill T4. finally it's just 10 pts.
 >> 

 With the Plasma Cannon I can crack anything short of a Land Raider or Leman Russ (and I
 can usually wiggle out a side shot on the Leman). I do lose the instant kill against T4 but, like I
 said, if you do enough wounds to the unit and they apply even one to the multi-wound model
 (or models) they have to keep applying the wounds to that same model until it is dead. Plus
 my tac squads are always to the front of my lines so range is not usually an issue.

 >> i do recognize the value of the plasma cannon but i treat it as a "special" weapon, rather
 than standard issue. a clasic weapon of choice against SM or CSM armies though ;)
 >> 

 It works well against tyranids (especially Tyrant Guard) also. And it may be overkill against
 other armies but I'll accept that. ;)

 >> >> I lost ... and two models to his attacks.
 >> 
 >> against 'nids ?! oh brother *all smiles*
 >> 

 It was a glorious day. But, then again, I haven't lost to the Tyranids (yet!) with my Dark
 Angels and I have been playing for about 2 years now. I find most people play the 'nids in
 such a limited fashion (charge-eat-charge) that they are easy to counter tactically. The other
 players, that use them wisely, force me to adapt quickly.

 >> >> And I am known to be the WORST roller in our gaming group. The dice gods hate
 me.
 >> 
 >> "be blessed, the gracious powers of snake eyes and boxed cars, and let aurion roll his way
 to glory"
 >> 

 Thank you, my brother-marine, but good die rolls may take my edge away and make me
 complacent. I'll settle with being blessed with mediocre die rolls and clarity of vision what to
 do with them.

 And the same for you.

 Aurion Shidhe 
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       back to the front with this one! :-) . (2 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 2/20/2002 16:02
 (2/21/2002 23:54) 
 kerthwack!
 ~ Brother Edward - always finding things he should know more about! 
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           angels, unite : ))) . (1 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/21/2002 7:58 (2/21/2002 23:54) 
 welcome brother edward - nice to see you interested in the "other" kind of angels :)))

 >> I must admit I do not know enough about the Dark Angels! I have the codex right here -
 but seeing as how I've never played them (nor seen them used firsthand) and ESPECIALLY
 since they just revamped the rules recently - I'd really like to hear your thoughts on general
 Dark Angel strengths and weaknesses.

 the funny thing about the general strengths and weaknesses of dark angels is that they are, as
 micahmbg already noticed in this thread, very similar to vanilla marines. of course that
 concerns a standard dark angels army and not the pure deathwing or ravenwing armies. this
 puts a DA commander at a considerable advantage, at least source-wise, as almost all good
 pointers for SM will ba applicable to DA (and vice versa).

 so first, let's have a guided tour through the specifc elements for a DA army. we have two
 special rules that are chapter specific - stubborn and intractable - which have a strong
 influence on our strategies. the stubborn rule is plain and simple: all deathwing members are
 stubborn (apart form master of the ravenwing) and they confer this ability to any squad they
 lead (vet sarge can be made stubborn at +5 pts). so we might have an entire army made
 stubborn and, as you probably already know, that translates into units unbreakable in HtH
 (auto pass morale checks, even if would otherwise automatically fail) that will not break their
 advance if taking heavy casualities. notice that they can still be pinned though.

 another point of discussion is whether one should make tac squads stubborn. well, there are
 two trade off to make: 1) you have to pay 20 pts (for vet sarge upgrade and stubborn) and 2)
 you cannot voluntarily fall back. all in all, i got used to have my shock troops (character led
 cmd squad and terminators) to be stubborn, but i rarely make other troops stubborn, save for
 an assault-oriented tac squad for tying up enemy special assault units.

 the second rule, as you have pointed out, has been revamped. being intractable is no longer
 "can't move on a roll of 1 if within etc." but now means that if a unit takes 25% casualities in
 enemy shooting phase they do not fall back but cannot move or assault in their next turn (with
 shooting as normal). very useful for defensive missions, but the biggest advantage is still the
 replacement of the old rule ;).

 we have some other special rules (like restricionts to allies, reaction to the fallen etc.) but they
 have limited influence in game terms, although are great to make up characterful scenarios and
 campaigns.

 the most specific and recognizable elements are naturally the deathwing and ravenwing - but
 since these require an altogether diferent approach i'll skip them for now. we're after genereal
 S&W after all. other specific elements include plasma cannons available in tac squads.
 cheaper terminator armor for indendendent characters (which is fine, as they already had a
 higher point cost to include terminator honorus), a 4 to 9 strong cmd squad, librarians being
 able to pick either weaken resolve or the good ol' smite.

 so as you could see the DA are very much like vanilla marines only better :))). being able to go
 stubborn, field deathwing (IMHO the ultimate terminators) and ravenwing makes them more
 effective as they are perfectly able to add extra boost to a given area: fast attack, fire support
 etc. they tend to be less assault oriented as they do not have any special troops (like honour
 guard or DC or vet assault marines).

 the general tactics IMHO would therefore include at least three variants:

 - make the core of your force support your elites or shock troops, so that they are able to
 perform their role and are not hindered by enemy threats,
 - play a classic shooty army, whit units screening and supporting each other,
 - play a mobile, tac-heavy force that can easily redeploy during battle.

 i would like to hear other opinions on this and then have them analyzed in detail.

 so much for an introduction to ordo angelorum caliginis. hope you enjoyed it. keep an eye on
 this thread, we'll try to make it worthwhile.

 nothing is forgotten,
 nothing is forgiven,

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum

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               greetings brothers! :-) . (0 Replies). BloodAngelBrotherEdward[]. 2/21/2002 23:54 (2/21/2002
 23:54) 
 >> welcome brother edward - nice to see you interested in the "other" kind of angels :)))
 >> 

 +++++ why thank you bodycount! You are most gracious :-) So many fun armies - so little
 time! :-) oops - looks like I bumped this back to the front again - I'm so clumsy :-)

 bwahahahahaa

 Glory to the Emperor ~ Brother Edward
 http://www.dragonrealm.com/exlibrismortis 
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       Things that go bump in the night. (NT) (NT) . (0 Replies). littlepurplemonkey[]. 2/20/2002 17:56
 (2/20/2002 17:56) 
 No Text 
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       RE: DA Tactical Thread (Input please) . (13 Replies). danimalicious[]. 2/20/2002 21:13 (3/4/2002 15:28) 
 I must admit to a certain lack of experience, generally speaking, but I would like to point out
 nonetheless that just because Dark Angels are viewed as a primarily shooty army, assault units
 should be ignored. Not to say that anyone has said this, but just in case you were thinking of
 filling up on more tactical troops - well, don't. I like using an Interragator-chaplain with a Jump
 Pack and letting him fight with an Assault Squad. Granted, I have to let them sit for one or
 even two turns in cover, but then I let loose and them cleave through the flank of my
 opponenet. 

 I have found success particularly because I've used a Ravenwing bike squad (vet sgt w/
 power weapon, 1 normal bike, 1 flamer and one attack bike with Heavy Bolter) to soften up
 a unit before the assault squad and chaplain make their move. Additionally, scouts can pin one
 unit, or a tactical squad can try to cut one unit off, so to speak, thereby eliminating threats
 from enemy units that could feasibly support the assault squad's target unity. Too many
 subjects in that sentence, but I think you know what I mean.

 And like others have said, mount as much as you can, or use jump-packs, and keep your
 marines on the move. Well, not too much so that htey can actually use their bolters, but by no
 means let the Ravenwing hog all the glory with fast vehicles.

 One question I'd like to raise, which speaks more generally to Space Marines rather than
 Dark Angels, is the use of Terminators. They are expensive and seem to have limited
 usefulness. Let's assume we don't teleport them into battle or give them a Land Raider. They
 are slow and have a relatively short ranged weapon. Yes, you can throw in an assault cannon,
 heavy flamer or even a cyclone, but not that many (go Deathwing - 2 heavy weapons!). And
 even then, say you go with a cyclone, then you're mixing ranges on weaponry. Furthermore,
 their standard issue CCW, despite its bonuses, can be problematic since it will always strike
 last, and any opponent worth his/her salt will throw power weapons galore at this unit to
 induce the 5+ save, which isn't that good. AND, once in close combat, and say that the
 terminators are stuck in a squad of termagants or cultists, that storm bolter jsut seems like it's
 going to be in the way. And so, is there a point to fielding a Terminator Squad that is not
 assault oriented?

 I would be more than happy to take a squad of Deathwing, give them a Heavy
 Flamer/Chainfist, Assault Cannon/power fist, 2 x lightning claw pairs, and then the Sgt. I
 would probably want to mount them in a Land Raider (ideally a Crusader) to get them into
 comabt really fast. But that's a lot of points right there. A lot. 

 So, those are my (probably) baseless comments on terminators - I don't use them often, nor
 do I like the lack of mobility and flexibility that characters in terminator armor must accept, so
 I don't use the armor often, either. But maybe I'm mis-understanding something, so please, do
 let me know what the key is to an effective Deathwing. 
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           a reply... . (2 Replies). aurion[]. 2/21/2002 2:17 (2/25/2002 5:17) 
 >> I must admit to a certain lack of experience, generally speaking, but I would like to point
 out nonetheless that just because Dark Angels are viewed as a primarily shooty army, assault
 units should be ignored. Not to say that anyone has said this, but just in case you were
 thinking of filling up on more tactical troops - well, don't. I like using an Interragator-chaplain
 with a Jump Pack and letting him fight with an Assault Squad. Granted, I have to let them sit
 for one or even two turns in cover, but then I let loose and them cleave through the flank of
 my opponenet. 
 >> 

 I play a VERY shooty Dark Angel army but that doesn't mean that I discount their assault
 ability. As a general rule I like to keep at least one squad per army in a dedicated assault/fast
 attack role. To do otherwise is to limit your tactical flexibility. And isn't that what the marines
 are all about.

 Heck, just the normal tactical marines are no joke in HtH combat. They just aren't great at it.
 And the fact that you cannot take Veterans to equip with pistols, CCWs, and Rhinos limits
 you to very expensive (or very slow if you remove the jump packs) assault squads or bike
 squads as your primary fast assault units. 

 I tend to use scouts in an assault role also. You'd be suprised what 5 normal scouts, 4
 shotgunners, and a vet sgt. with a power weapon can do in HtH.

 So I just went to the other extreme and maxed out my shooting ability. That guarantees that
 when I actually do assault anyone they have been well mauled by my gunners beforehand.

 Additionally, scouts can pin one unit, or a tactical squad can try to cut one unit off, so to
 speak, thereby eliminating threats from enemy units that could feasibly support the assault
 squad's target unity. Too many subjects in that sentence, but I think you know what I mean.
 >> 

 Good point. I try really hard to isolate enemy units with gunfire before assaulting them to limit
 their support. At the same time, I never assault an enemy unit (if I can help it) without some
 sort of support nearby (such as a tac squad to gun down enemy units moving to "assault my
 assaulters").

 >> And like others have said, mount as much as you can, or use jump-packs, and keep your
 marines on the move. Well, not too much so that htey can actually use their bolters, but by no
 means let the Ravenwing hog all the glory with fast vehicles.
 >> 

 Go for it if that is the type of army you choose. I just think that there are better mobile SM
 armies out there that the DA. Such as any army that can give their troops pistols and CCWs
 or that can take Veterans that can do the same.

 >> One question I'd like to raise, which speaks more generally to Space Marines rather than
 Dark Angels, is the use of Terminators. And so, is there a point to fielding a Terminator Squad
 that is not assault oriented?
 >> 

 I whole-heartedly agree with you on this point. I really only ever field termies in a LR
 Crusader and always load them for HtH action.

 >> So, those are my (probably) baseless comments on terminators - I don't use them often,
 nor do I like the lack of mobility and flexibility that characters in terminator armor must accept,
 so I don't use the armor often, either. But maybe I'm mis-understanding something, so please,
 do let me know what the key is to an effective Deathwing.

 I'm still trying to figure out a good DW army myself. The only good I've done with these guys
 so far is to teleport them onto the table loaded for bear (an assault cannon and missile
 launcher in every squad) and gunned the enemy down.

 Aurion Shidhe 
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               RE: Scout w/Shotguns . (1 Replies). smailliwat[]. 2/24/2002 20:47 (2/25/2002 5:17) 
 >> I tend to use scouts in an assault role also. You'd be suprised what 5 normal scouts, 4
 shotgunners, and a vet sgt. with a power weapon can do in HtH.

 How has the new assault rules affected your shooting before going into an assault with
 shotguns?
 

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                   RE: Scout w/Shotguns . (0 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/25/2002 5:17 (2/25/2002 5:17) 
 >> >> I tend to use scouts in an assault role also. You'd be suprised what 5 normal scouts, 4
 shotgunners, and a vet sgt. with a power weapon can do in HtH.
 >> 
 >> How has the new assault rules affected your shooting before going into an assault with
 shotguns?

 with the beta rules ver. 2.0 i'd say that you have to get REALLY close to not shoot yourself
 out of charge range (ver. 2.0 states that you can charge the unit you have previously fired at).

 if these rules become official they will greatly affect terminators and (to a lesser extent)
 dreadnoughts. the bread and butter of terminators' use was shoot one target and charge
 another (with their awsome fire power within 24" you never really wanted to shoot and charge
 the same unit ;). so IMHO these troops will find the new rules disadvantageous. 

 on the other hand you'll see poeple making choices - do i charge form way over here and not
 shoot (for obvious reasons ;) or do i try to get closer and in next turn shoot and charge. and
 one more thing. flamers will become much more popular (close range & target selection).

 i could go on and grumble about the beta rules but i'd better do it on game development board
 :)

 thanks for your input on this thread - that was a good question you asked. we wait for more
 ...

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum 
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           on deathwing and other issues . (9 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/21/2002 4:22 (3/4/2002 15:28) 
 greetings battle brother,

 >> One question I'd like to raise, which speaks more generally to Space Marines rather than
 Dark Angels, is the use of Terminators. They are expensive and seem to have limited
 usefulness.

 before we get deeper into the subject, i'd like to point out one general remark. try to think of
 the terminators as SPECILIZED rather than having limited usefullness. this will help you realize
 that they can be extremely useful - to the point of being the MVU (most valuable unit :))) - if
 you are able to recognize their role on the battlefield and use them in that particular role with
 maximum effectiveness. i know it may sound a bit old, but it's one of the basic concepts
 behind general tactis - play to your strengths. now in case of deathwing, it looks even better
 than in case of standard SM termies, as you have an extremely flexible squad structure at your
 disposal: being able to take two heavy weapons of your choice (yes, that means you usually
 take the same) and the ability to combine heavy wepons, storm bolter/power fists and assault
 weapons in one squad. but remember that although DW are more universal and flexible they
 are still a SPECIALIZED unit and require specific use.

 >> Let's assume we don't teleport them into battle or give them a Land Raider. They are slow
 and have a relatively short ranged weapon.

 as any space marines that are on foot without transport ;). but i see your point - you have 47
 pts per model slugging it out through the mud. we'll get there soon.

 >> Yes, you can throw in an assault cannon, heavy flamer or even a cyclone, but not that
 many (go Deathwing - 2 heavy weapons!). And even then, say you go with a cyclone, then
 you're mixing ranges on weaponry. 

 IMHO the concept o mixing ranges generally applies to heavy weapons -i.e. an assault
 cannon and cyclone would be a mixed range (that is why i preach taking the same two heavy
 weapons within the squad). on a similar note: i wouldn't call a tac squad with missile launcher,
 plasma gun and bolters having mixed ranges. they simply max out on fire power within 24"
 range. as is the case with terminators. however, terminators have move&shoot capability
 (firing heavy weapons and having storm bolters) which makes them extremely deadly while on
 the move as well. give iit a thought. a squad with two cyclones has fire power comparable to a
 dreadnought with TL lascans and missile launcher at 25"+ and much better (not to mention
 versatile) fire power at 24" and less.

 >> Furthermore, their standard issue CCW, despite its bonuses, can be problematic since it
 will always strike last, and any opponent worth his/her salt will throw power weapons galore
 at this unit to induce the 5+ save, which isn't that good. AND, once in close combat, and say
 that the terminators are stuck in a squad of termagants or cultists, that storm bolter jsut seems
 like it's going to be in the way. And so, is there a point to fielding a Terminator Squad that is
 not assault oriented?

 to answer your questions one at a time. what is the standard issue of terminators? remember
 remember what i said inthe beginning? IMHO there is NO standard issue. termies are too
 specialized (and point expensive) for that. so what is their role you may ask? it is the task you
 need them to perform within a particular army list, against a particular opponent or in a
 particular mission, as long as you don't put them in a suicide run. i realize that it sound corny
 but look - and let's concentarte on your case - no transport and no deep strike:

 - in any mission that involves defence, take and hold or a similar task (or any battlefield that
 has terrain forming firing lanes and protecting you form being shot at from all around)
 terminators are superb: T4, 2+ armor save (5+ inv.) can change firing position and still fire in
 the same turn, get off a voley of shots (storm bolters, backed up by assault cannons), can
 have tank busting capabilities (cyclones). go ahead. engage in 24" firefights. if the enemy
 makes it to your lines and you're in cover you strike simultaneously ! if not you have he most
 staying power of all marines units and you should easily get to retaliate - with power fists and
 power weapons - perfectly able to take down any and all foes.

 - in advance-type misssions you have to walk it. so let's make the best of it. you can screen
 your approaching termies with scouts (enemy models block LOS) and keep firing cyclones on
 the move (friendly ones don't :))) and even if you attract fire, so what? like i said, you have
 excellent staying power and your enemy is NOT firing on those A11 fornt armor of your
 rhinos for a turn. a turn is all you need to make it to his lines with those 10 strong tac squads.
 be vary though that this cannot be taken to extremes - walking gainst tau or eldar or shooty IG
 is never a good idea. again - termies will perform within army, mission and enemy contexts.
 not in a standard issue.

 now imagine how much better they can be with a transport or being teleported? on a technical
 note, if plan to teleport it's usually quite useful to use a vet scout sarge with a homer to get
 them in.

 what about HtH? you say that your enemy will throw power weapon wielding troops at your
 termies - why do you let him? terminators are your elites that need to protected. the fact that a
 unit is in potential danger is no reason to not use it. this is when tactics come to the fore - who
 will outsmart the opponent? who will pull off the best tactics. set up fire traps. play delayed
 tactics. or use the termies themselves. if have 6 of them (standard issue wepons-wise and )
 against 10 howling banshees (classic :))). you fire 8 str4 ap5 bullets and 6 str6 ap4 bullets. and
 then YOU assault (+1A) if you were close enough you didn't shoot yourself out of charge. the
 exarch will reap you, but other banshees hit on 4+ and wound on 5+ and you SAVE on 5+.
 IMHO you loose 2 models tops. so four power fist swings in return. guess who's the last man
 standing? but the above examnple is extreme. you have an entire army at your disposal to
 prepare a tactical situation for your termies to exploit. this is the key to use them - create
 tactical situations where they will be the most effective - we come to the basics here - PLAY
 TO YOUR STRENGTHS.

 i think i already answered what good storm bolters and standard issue terminators are against
 'gaunts, didn't i :))) ?

 and now the icing on the cake. DW termies mix assault troops with heavy weapons with
 standard issue weapons. this translats into a more effective combat force that is IMHO even
 easier to put into a favorable tactical situation because of its versality.

 >> I would be more than happy to take a squad of Deathwing, give them a Heavy
 Flamer/Chainfist, Assault Cannon/power fist, 2 x lightning claw pairs, and then the Sgt. I
 would probably want to mount them in a Land Raider (ideally a Crusader) to get them into
 comabt really fast. But that's a lot of points right there. A lot. 

 a couple of observations that you may find useful:

 -if you give your termies a crusader make them 8-man strong. use your advatages (transport
 capacity) to the fullest- it'll make all the difference.

 - i'd suggest 2 assault cannons (more versatile and that mix-ranges thing :))). observe how
 your opponents deploy and move their troops. if they tend to have lines and space well forget
 about the flamer (a matter of personal taste though). oh, and definately bring them agaist
 bunkers. ever won by killing the whole bunker squad with one shot?

 and did an excellent job selecting DW and highlighting their strengths already - combining solid
 fire support with kill-fast HtH choices.

 one more general note - unless playing pure DW army i don't think LRs and DW termies mix
 well (unless you play above 2000 pts), as you select the most costly infantry and vehicles. this
 will effectively limit your point allowance significantly and you may not have enough other units
 to a) contain your enemy in other sections of the battlefield or b) create the advantageous
 tactical situation for termies. just a personal opinion here.

 >> So, those are my (probably) baseless comments on terminators - I don't use them often,
 nor do I like the lack of mobility and flexibility that characters in terminator armor must accept,
 so I don't use the armor often, either. But maybe I'm mis-understanding something, so please,
 do let me know what the key is to an effective Deathwing.

 in a nut shell:

 - treat terminators as a highly specialized force,
 - never let them on their own - support them with other units,
 - create a tactical situation for your terminators to exploit,
 - play to your strengths - it's gotta be you who controls what kind of engagements the
 terminators will end up in. a contest of tactical skill is a difficult isue but also one most
 rewarding if you win.

 and basically use them. you know, the "train hard, fight easy" thing :)))

 good hunting,

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum

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               ASK ME WHAT U WANNA KNOW (NT) . (0 Replies). doomangel[]. 2/21/2002 5:48 (2/21/2002 5:48) 
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               RE: on deathwing and other issues . (3 Replies). littlepurplemonkey[]. 2/21/2002 8:27 (3/4/2002
 15:28) 
 Just out of interest, I noticed that when you went through the Deathwing (And a very helpful
 article too I might add :)), however you didn't mention Thunder Hammers - Is there really any
 point in taking thunder hammers? I personally prefer lightning claws for HTH, but come across
 a lot of bloodthirsters, hive tyrants etc. where I really dont want them to be striking again next
 go? Or am I approaching this from the wrong angle (Half asleep at the moment)? What do
 you all think of using Thunder Hammers? 
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                   thunder strike . (1 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/21/2002 9:09 (2/21/2002 9:31) 
 >> you didn't mention Thunder Hammers - Is there really any point in taking thunder
 hammers? I personally prefer lightning claws for HTH, but come across a lot of bloodthirsters,
 hive tyrants etc. where I really dont want them to be striking again next go? Or am I
 approaching this from the wrong angle (Half asleep at the moment)? What do you all think of
 using Thunder Hammers?

 welcome littlepurplemonkey (grand master littlepurplemonkey, how's taht sound :))) ?

 you are right i did omitt the thunder hammer, and i think that reflects in a way the frequency
 with which they appear on the battle field. now, about using them ...

 you already answered your own question in part - they are meant to engage those big, ugly
 things that frequent the battlefields of 40k universe all too often. the improved ability to
 withstand the inital attack (inv. save 4+, but remember that against 1 enemy model only - so
 it's crucial to engage enemy units of equal number of models tops) and then get precedence in
 HtH (assuming you wound and don't instant kill them :))) is good. so in this way they are
 perfect against largish brutes.

 as any power fist-like models they are quite ok versus vehicles (automatic crew shaken result
 if you hit), but with a chain fist available i wouldn't pay too much attention to that.

 the value of thunder hammers was greatly decreased when the crux terminatus rule was
 introduced, giving all termies a 5+ inv. applicable in any situation. let's try and compare the
 different typical weapons isssued to terminators:

 TH vs. lightning claws: against anything up to T5 i'd take the claws: +1 A (the only possibility
 to increase the A number for termies), S4, re-roll any failed to wound rolls. really, if combined
 wit heavy weapon and power fist in the same squad, to me it seems to be the ultimate combo.

 TH vs. power fist: one-on-one TH is better as it has an additional useful effect in combat,
 however at the expense of shooting. IMHO this trade-off is disadvantageous, so my vote is
 again against the TH.

 so, to sum things up, i'd use TH in two situations:

 1) a monster/daemon-busting squad, that would have 2 assault cannons and 4 THs. and
 against something really nasty i would even swap assault cannons with cyclones. this unit
 would deep strike (with a homer on the battlefield) to make sure they get where i want them
 to get (more or less :))). and that would be really great fluff wise: a unit of scouts encounters a
 monsterous creature and calls in the termies, sheesh ! :)))

 2) a single TH or two in a mixed squad; if i assault an enemy unit with invisible power
 weapons and the like, or i'm in Hth with a dread or monsterous creature, i could position and
 use them to take the hits, as they have a better inv. save (4+).

 so much from me, what do the others think?

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum

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                       RE: thunder strike . (0 Replies). aurion[]. 2/21/2002 9:31 (2/21/2002 9:31) 
 >> >> you didn't mention Thunder Hammers - Is there really any point in taking thunder
 hammers? I personally prefer lightning claws for HTH, but come across a lot of bloodthirsters,
 hive tyrants etc. where I really dont want them to be striking again next go? Or am I
 approaching this from the wrong angle (Half asleep at the moment)? What do you all think of
 using Thunder Hammers?
 >> 

 much snippage of good pointage...

 >> so much from me, what do the others think?
 >> 

 My typical Deathwing squad consists of 2 thunder hammers, 2 lightning claws, cyclone,
 assault cannon, and sarge. 7 men gives me enough room to have my GM w/ Sword of Secrets
 join them and still fit into a LR Crusader. My DW are primarily focused on bringing down or
 containing big threats on the table (such as Greater Daemons, Juggernaughts [very popular
 around here], Carnifexi, etc.). The Land Raider keeps them alive and allows me to rapidly
 deploy them to any area on the table. I LOVE the thunderhammers as all I need is one wound
 on those monstrosities and they get stunned. That alone makes them worthy in my book.

 Aurion Shidhe 
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                   RE: RE: on deathwing and other issues . (0 Replies). blackbone[]. 3/4/2002 15:28 (3/4/2002
 15:28) 
 I basically only use thunder hammer/storm shield for fluff value and the mere chance to make a
 cool bunker/vehicle/daemon attack.
 The thunder hammer resides in my only LR DW group (all DW army).
 2x claws, the hammer, a heavy flamer and a sgt in a regular LR. They focus on waiting for the
 right victim, then making their 20" assualt move, preceded by a quick blast from the flamer.
 They usually destroy their points worth, then consolidate or trudge into the next enemy unit
 while the LR provides cover for my footslogging or deep striking command squad.

 Blackbone

 >> Just out of interest, I noticed that when you went through the Deathwing (And a very
 helpful article too I might add :)), however you didn't mention Thunder Hammers - Is there
 really any point in taking thunder hammers? I personally prefer lightning claws for HTH, but
 come across a lot of bloodthirsters, hive tyrants etc. where I really dont want them to be
 striking again next go? Or am I approaching this from the wrong angle (Half asleep at the
 moment)? What do you all think of using Thunder Hammers? 
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               RE: on deathwing and other issues . (3 Replies). danimalicious[]. 2/21/2002 21:02 (2/22/2002
 8:25) 
 Thank you for the words and wisdom re: The Deathwing. I don't much consider them, since
 they are so high in points (and yes, that's what I meant when I talked about how slow they
 are) and seem to be able to cause much damage. My general rule of thumb is make sure I'm
 rolling as many dice as possible, relatively speaking, so one squad of Deathwing does not
 translate into a whole lot of dice. 

 A question, though, that is outstanding, is what about putting characters in Terminator armor?
 It's mighty cheap for DA characters, but again, how worthwhile? I would not want to see a
 Master or GM or chaplain in terminator armor, as it seems to limit their awesome HTH
 abilities. I know that Term armor does afford great protection, but certainly at a cost. I would
 consider a Librarian in Terminator armor, since his powers don't neccesarily rely on close
 proximity to the enemy (though his force sword certainly does). And if I had him against
 someone that needed a force sword to be dealt with, then I'd be glad to put in term armor for
 the protection.

 But what are other people's thoughts of usign term armor on DA charcters, considering what
 sort of a deal it is. 
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                   tactical dreadnought armor for ICs . (2 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/22/2002 4:17 (2/22/2002 8:25) 
 >> A question, though, that is outstanding, is what about putting characters in Terminator
 armor? It's mighty cheap for DA characters, but again, how worthwhile? I would not want to
 see a Master or GM or chaplain in terminator armor, as it seems to limit their awesome HTH
 abilities. I know that Term armor does afford great protection, but certainly at a cost. I would
 consider a Librarian in Terminator armor, since his powers don't neccesarily rely on close
 proximity to the enemy (though his force sword certainly does). And if I had him against
 someone that needed a force sword to be dealt with, then I'd be glad to put in term armor for
 the protection.

 an excellent question that is. let's try and weigh the pros and cons and let's start with the good
 things:

 - a good measure of protection, offering a 2+ armor save and a 5+ inv. save,
 - very cheap at 10 pts. now,
 - character can deep strike (without the whole army in drop pods),
 - can join a DW squad (no longer acting as cmd though :( and addd some punch to it.

 * i could add move&fire hvy. weapons, but since your character can't get it it's not an
 advantage *

 and now for the dark side:

 - you can't pursue - not always a disadvantage, agreed, but if joined by a cmd squad that you
 want to chase the enemy, your character would be left out,
 - limited access to weapon and wargear (to a smaller extent) choices. please note that you
 can't take pistols, so unless taking a pair of lightning claws you effectively lose one attack,
 - cannot ride in rhinos and 'backs (which also limits the ability to have a cmd squad AND
 mobility).

 as you could read in one of the first posts here, IMHO a character with 4 attacks NEEDS to
 make it into combat. this said i always give them iron halo (cannot take it with terminator
 armor) and usually mount them (and their command squad) in a transport. therefore my
 characters rarely see the actical dreadnought armor.

 so what's it good for? it's useful when you need a cheap character. or if you plan to deep
 strike some units and need support. or if you play a defensive mission and need an additional
 HQ that would be able to support your line whenever and wherever it's needed. and of course
 you can have your character join a DW squad and cause even more havoc :)

 check out the battle report in WD 253. Pete haines used a SM commander in terminator
 armor in a defensive mission against the 'nids.

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum 
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                       RE: tactical dreadnought armor for ICs . (1 Replies). littlepurplemonkey[]. 2/22/2002
 7:56 (2/22/2002 8:25) 
 >> - can join a DW squad (no longer acting as cmd though :( and addd some punch to it.

 Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but why can't an IC without Termie armour join a DW squad - I
 was under the impression that he could? Thanks in advance for clarification on this. 
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                           oh well, my bad : ))) . (0 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/22/2002 8:25 (2/22/2002 8:25) 
 >> Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but why can't an IC without Termie armour join a DW squad -
 I was under the impression that he could? Thanks in advance for clarification on this.

 nothing is forgiven, nothing is forgotten : )))

 yes, you are absolutely right. they can. so disregard that last point from advantages section
 (one less reason to field them ;).
 my bad, i messed the rules up on that one. thank you for pointing it out.

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum
 
 

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       c'mon, we need your ideas (that and a bump : ))) (NT) . (0 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/21/2002 11:43
 (2/21/2002 11:43) 
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       DA standards... . (2 Replies). aurion[]. 2/21/2002 11:44 (2/25/2002 11:27) 
 Do any of you use the standards in your command squads?

 I haven't even owned a standard bearer since I started playing the DA (about 2 years now),
 mostly because I rarely take a command squad. However, I recently purchased the standard
 bearer and included him in my army. 

 All I can say is...WOW!

 When my opponent, a Tyranid player, tried to charge me last week I activated the Standard
 of Devestation and hit his hormagaunts with a eight bolters and two flamers. Needless to say
 the hormagaunts vaporized in the face of that.

 Just wondering if anyone else had similar experience with the Standards.

 Aurion Shidhe 
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           RE: DA standards... . (1 Replies). xvr[]. 2/25/2002 10:50 (2/25/2002 11:27) 
 I use the standards too... 
 But mainly I use the Standard which lets you re-roll the to hit roll. I usually put it into an
 Deathwing Command squad (only in DW armies of course). Together with a Master of the
 Deathwing with sword of secrets and 4-7 Termies with lightning claws. Thats really fun.
 Mount them in Crusader and charge. First you get the re-roll for the to hit and after that the
 clwas get a re-roll for the to wound roll as well...

 xvr 
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               the righteous retribution ... . (0 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/25/2002 11:27 (2/25/2002 11:27) 
 >> I usually put it into an Deathwing Command squad (only in DW armies of course).
 Together with a Master of the Deathwing with sword of secrets and 4-7 Termies with lightning
 claws. Thats really fun. Mount them in Crusader and charge. First you get the re-roll for the to
 hit and after that the clwas get a re-roll for the to wound roll as well...

 welcome xvr. i must admit i really like your idea of ... well fun :))) 

 i think i could use that too (and so could my opponents ;). if only it didn't cost that much
 *sigh*. so basically it looks that every time people take up standards it's either devastation or
 retribution. fortitude, anyone?

 re-rolling, limp bizkit style !!!

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum 
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       My thoughts on the RavenWing . (2 Replies). erdagon[]. 2/21/2002 15:02 (2/22/2002 10:07) 
 Well , I noticed people inhere talked about normal DA marines and our Elite attack force , the
 Deathwing . Now I'm gonna focus on the Ravenwing with what I've experienced so far with
 them . Although I'm not a Ravenwing player myself , I use Ravenwing squad(ron)s when ever
 I can and the point options allow it . My first advice is , if you are able (points wise) always go
 for full squads and squadrons . That extra twinlinked bolter could indeed save your hide from
 an assault . As for Landspeeders , well , I suggest you go for Tornado's since they can be
 fielded in squadrons and so deal out more damage (again , if points allow) . If you include
 atleast two Ravenwing squad(ron)s , make sure you use them BOTH on the same squad to
 maximise their damage potential (attack bikes and landspeeders firing on one squad can
 actually whipe it out) . I can't put any advice on the HB upgrade to MultiMelta on speeders
 since I haven't been able to test that out (but I will , soon) . Anyway , Ravenwing squads are
 best used together , the only exception perhaps is the Attack bike squad . When equipped
 with MultiMelta's , you should use them to hunt down enemy armour and use the other RW
 squads to make sure the Attack bikes don't get attacked (perhaps giving them more cover fire
 with your tac and dev squads or any other heavy firing troopkiller available) . Well , that's it
 for my point of view on the RW . Anybody who has other suggestions about them (especially
 RW players) put your thoughts here . :)
 

 Erdagon Faldan
 Dark Angels commander
 HBK 
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           we need more ideas on RW . (1 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/22/2002 3:48 (2/22/2002 10:07) 
 >> My first advice is , if you are able (points wise) always go for full squads and squadrons .
 That extra twinlinked bolter could indeed save your hide from an assault . As for
 Landspeeders , well , I suggest you go for Tornado's since they can be fielded in squadrons
 and so deal out more damage (again , if points allow) .

 i agree that concentarated fire power is better but would like to ask to a question here:

 - is it really worth to field speeders (as part of regular army, not all-RW) in full squadrons? i
 would worry about hits carrying over. any high ROF weapon with S 5+ would have a decent
 chance of hittting more than one speeder?

 thanks Erdagon Faldan for your ideas on ravenwing units. we need more ideas on how to use
 them. anyone else?

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum 
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               like all things , it depends on your opponent . . (0 Replies). erdagon[]. 2/22/2002 10:07 (2/22/2002
 10:07) 
 >> - is it really worth to field speeders (as part of regular army, not all-RW) in full squadrons?
 i would worry about hits carrying over. any high ROF weapon with S 5+ would have a decent
 chance of hittting more than one speeder?

 As it is with all choices you make , it all depends on your opponents army . Against swarming
 armies like Nids or orks I think full speeder squadrons are very usefull to cripple or even
 anihilate the whole unit you fire upon . Then again , if you're facing an IG AC then I don't think
 it's usefull . Although , to beat that kind of style , three Multimelta armed speeders could do
 quite some damage . Many might perhaps disregard the speeder as not point effectively
 enough to be considered taken , i think with the rules revision for DA they're worth giving a
 thought since they can have multiple tasks themselves now too (a normal speeder with just the
 HB for supporting fire against infantry , with MM only as fast Tank hunters , with HB and AC
 As infantry squad destroyers or dual purpose with MM and AC) . As for your remark
 concerning their vulnerabilty against high rate s5 weaponry , you're right , but then again ,
 when they move at full speed they only get glancing hits and you still have a 6+ inv save .
 That's not much , but it's still better than nothing at all . Plus , like many other units (for
 instance DW) they can draw away alot of serious fire from other units . I think that despite
 their cost , they're almost as versatile as a Tac squad , only a little more pricey (pointswise)
 and a little more vulnerable , but not the less , they can deal out a serious punch , especially
 when you combine their firepower with other (RW)squads . Good hunting .
 

 Erdagon Faldan
 Dark Angels commander
 Heretic's Butt Kicker 
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       OH MY GOD!! Sydney!!.....did you hear that?!?!?! it went BUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (NT) . (0 Replies).
 Broadsider[]. 2/21/2002 15:40 (2/21/2002 15:40) 
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       Just another bump. (NT) . (0 Replies). littlepurplemonkey[]. 2/21/2002 19:00 (2/21/2002 19:00) 
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       OK, Tactics... tactics... hmmm... tactics? (long) . (10 Replies). Drazden[]. 2/21/2002 20:19 (3/5/2002 0:42)
 Ok, here's a standard 1500 list for me

 1 Grand Master w/ plasma pistol, artificer armor, sword of secrets
 OR
 Librarian, force weapon, bolt pistol, bionics, artificer armor or a psychic hood
 (This gives you some choice--against simply well-armored troops, like SM or CSM, I usually
 take the GM, but, against, say, Eldar, where a psychic hood is needed, or against horde
 armies with multi-wound leaders *aherm Hive Tyrant* out comes my librarian.)

 These 2 are basically useless without a support squad, so a small command squad, 6 men,
 meltagun, vet sergeant w/ power weapon, and a transport usually follow

 Chaplain, plasma pistol, artificer armor, and a jump pack
 (Mobile death. what more can be said?)

 Dreadnought, twinlinked autocannon, power fist
 (the autocannon is new, but it basically just improves on the old light-vehicle-busting and
 troop-killing machine that is a dread)

 2 Tactical Squads, loaded to the brim, flamer, plasma gun, and plasma cannons or lascannons,
 depending on the foe

 Squad of 4 sniper scouts and a sergeant (of course)

 Big Assault Squad, 2 plasma pistols, vet. sergeant w/melta bomb, power weapon (just giving
 one model melta bombs is pretty tricky, but it works. And these guys provide nice cannon
 fodder until I can get my chaplain, who usually accompanies them, into HtH.)

 Devastators, 2 heavy bolters, 2 missile launchers
 (ive said it before and I'll say it again--this is the best possible combination a devastator squad
 can have against orks etc.)

 Predator Destructor w/ the lascannons

 And a Whirlwind

 Ok, now for the tactics. This may seem like a fairly standard list, and it is, but it still works.
 Very well. But your main objective is for your command squad, with character, and your
 chaplain to get stuck in, supported by your slower-dread, and for the rest of your army to just
 kind of sit back and fire at the other force, counter-charging as needed.

 Basically what you want to do, is identify two things about your enemy's army that really can
 cause you grief, usually his HQ and something that varies from race to race, and head straight
 for them with your characters. Combat specialists do not expect this usually, and wonder why
 you're running your expensively armored troopers into his choppas, so, if you play your cards
 right, he'll not only not figure out what you can do to his troopers until it's too late, you'll have
 been playing head games, and maybe the other player'll make a mistake. Hopefully. But
 anyway, as long as you're HQs assault the enemy, not the other way around, you're ok. well,
 with orks. with everyone else, you're fine anyway, i suppose. Just make sure you have initiatve
 on their main points of pride, such as warbosses, farseers, hive tyrants, etc. Then you lay into
 them.

 That's it. Your whirlwind fires at the troops, hopefully taking out lots, your tank fires at armor,
 your devastators fire at... whatever they want. Just remember to keep your tactical marines in
 between your heavy support and his front line, while your Hqs halt his advance (hopefully) and
 you'll be fine.

 Grand Master Drazden 
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           artificer armor and psychic hood - do they really work that well ? . (4 Replies). bodycount[].
 2/22/2002 5:22 (3/5/2002 0:42) 
 >> 1 Grand Master w/ plasma pistol, artificer armor, sword of secrets
 >> Librarian, force weapon, bolt pistol, bionics, artificer armor or a psychic hood
 >> Chaplain, plasma pistol, artificer armor, and a jump pack
 >> (Mobile death. what more can be said?)

 ok. it's another issue that i've been trying to come to grips with. is it really worth it to get the
 artificer armor for my character?

 most of the time (and alwasy under 1700 pts) i play with one IC only. and having a choice
 between an iron halo (25 pts) and artificer armor (20 pts) i always settle for the first. let's have
 a look at what we gain:

 4+ inv. save vs. increasing my 3+ armor save by 1

 IMHO a no-brainer. i take the halo. and since i don't want to spend too much points on a
 single character combining the two is out of question for me. on the other hand it seems like
 "aa" has actually worked for drazden.

 and a similar rant about the psychic hood. against eldar you need to beat farseer's rolls by two
 and warlock's by 1. so i'm not a great fan of the hood either. but i figure it may way more be
 useful versus chaos sorcerers.

 c'mon share your opinions !

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum
 

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               the other option... . (3 Replies). aurion[]. 2/22/2002 8:43 (3/5/2002 0:42) 
 >> ok. it's another issue that i've been trying to come to grips with. is it really worth it to get
 the artificer armor for my character?
 >> 
 >> 4+ inv. save vs. increasing my 3+ armor save by 1
 >> 
 >> IMHO a no-brainer. i take the halo. and since i don't want to spend too much points on a
 single character combining the two is out of question for me. on the other hand it seems like
 "aa" has actually worked for drazden.
 >> 

 Or for 10 points you can get terminator armor for your IC and get the 2+ save AND the inv
 save. The inv save IS a 5+ and not a 4+ but that's okay.

 Then you can put the Iron Halo on your Assault Squad Vet Sgt or get an Emperor's
 Champion if you allow special characters.

 Aurion Shidhe 
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                   that's an idea ... . (1 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/22/2002 10:12 (2/22/2002 10:45) 
 >> >> ok. it's another issue that i've been trying to come to grips with. is it really worth it to
 get the artificer armor for my character?

 >> Or for 10 points you can get terminator armor for your IC and get the 2+ save AND the
 inv save. The inv save IS a 5+ and not a 4+ but that's okay.
 >> Then you can put the Iron Halo on your Assault Squad Vet Sgt or get an Emperor's
 Champion if you allow special characters.

 definately - that's what we considered in the terminator armor for ICs reply. thanks for
 highlighting that.

 but personally, i'm a little afraid to pile so many points/valuable wargear on 1-wound
 characters (i would probably settle with a storm shield for my vet sarge). and since i usually
 field only one hq ... :))) i still think artificer armor is too expensive to use.

 thanks for your comments,

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum
 

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                       Artificer armour . (0 Replies). erdagon[]. 2/22/2002 10:45 (2/22/2002 10:45) 
 This is another one of those things that I usually consider depending on what you filed &
 encounter . In your case , since you use only one HQ choice you might indeed consider the
 Halo as good enough . Well , considering again what enemy you face , I think it might be
 worth it if you expect that your command choice might get under fire of those AP3 weaponry .
 I guess the less you need to rely on that 4+inv save , the better . But then again , if the best
 your opponent can throw at you are AP4 weapons then indeed (or when you face Tau), the
 AA are wasted points . They could be a good choice for protection if you field two HQ's .
 That way you could give one the Halo and give the second one AA (and perhaps also strap a
 JP on his ass and let him join the Assault Squad) .Anyway , again , it all depends on what
 opponets you come along . And in CC it's ofcourse as good as any other armour . The only
 advantage point I see in AA over TA is the fact that you still can give the char better mobility
 (by either get him a JP or bike) . Another thought just got struck in my mind . What about IC's
 on bikes ?

 Erdagon Faldan
 Dark Angels commander
 HBK 
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                   nice idea!!! nt (NT) . (0 Replies). sutek[]. 3/5/2002 0:42 (3/5/2002 0:42) 
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           *sigh* All right . (2 Replies). Drazden[]. 2/22/2002 15:56 (2/23/2002 10:44) 
 I dont understand why you guys don't seem to like AA. It's cheaper than the iron halo, and I'd
 rather have a 2+ save versus an aP3 gun as opposed to a 4+ invulnerable. Ok, as soon as
 your opponent wades into CC with power weapons tho its a moot point. My army relies on
 getting your characters stuck in so that they can get as much damage done as possible, not
 keeping them alive. All DA characters have I5, enough to strike first against just about
 everybody. With this in mind, I simply could not see an extra 5 points, at the expense of his
 2+ normal save. He's in a command squad anyway, so who cares if your opponent fires a
 lascannon into it? I just don't see why people are worrying about invulnerable saves when,
 with the SoS, a Grand Master has 7 WS5 S6 I5 attacks when charging. 

 That's plenty good to annihalate most anything that the opponenet will throw at you--and
 when it doesn't, take the librarian. That's how I beat ork and tyranid players every time. A
 librarian, going the same time as a HT, almost always WILL kill it. However, if the HT has an
 implant attack, once again, it doesn't matter.

 But I think we can all agree that an Artificer-armored, Jetpack-equipped, plasma-pistoled
 chaplain is one of the most devastating forces that we can unleash on our foes. Am I right? I'm
 right, I think.

 Oh yeah--just as an aside, in case any DA players actually DO get around to reading this, do
 you actually paint your masters in white armor? Azrael doesn't have white armor. It's just
 something I've never gotten. 
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               white, as in deathwing ... . (0 Replies). bodycount[]. 2/23/2002 7:00 (2/23/2002 7:00) 
 >> I dont understand why you guys don't seem to like AA. It's cheaper than the iron halo, and
 I'd rather have a 2+ save versus an aP3 gun as opposed to a 4+ invulnerable. Ok, as soon as
 your opponent wades into CC with power weapons tho its a moot point. My army relies on
 getting your characters stuck in so that they can get as much damage done as possible, not
 keeping them alive. All DA characters have I5, enough to strike first against just about
 everybody. With this in mind, I simply could not see an extra 5 points, at the expense of his
 2+ normal save. He's in a command squad anyway, so who cares if your opponent fires a
 lascannon into it?

 therefore i rather have the iron halo - my IC won't be shot at, AP3 or worse ... and in HtH i
 akways have to face power weapons, fists and other nasties ... but like i said, this is what
 follows from my games. i'm going to give the AA another try in a bigger game with two HQs.

 I just don't see why people are worrying about invulnerable saves when, with the SoS, a
 Grand Master has 7 WS5 S6 I5 attacks when charging. 

 well if i take a master he ends up with a power fist, that's for one ;) and, unless i'm mistaken,
 grand master gets 6A max ?

 >> Oh yeah--just as an aside, in case any DA players actually DO get around to reading this,
 do you actually paint your masters in white armor? Azrael doesn't have white armor. It's just
 something I've never gotten.

 yes, i do. it really highlights the model, makes it recognizable in the field and, IMHO, just
 looks "muchos good" : ))) and fits the fluff well. but they get their left shoulder plate painted
 DA greeen with a black outline (ICs and termies too). chaplains get the same shoulder plate,
 to go with all-black armor. the apothecaries, techmarines and librarians have DA green armor
 and get their left shoulder plate painted, respectively, white, purple and blue. with a black
 outline.

 bodycount
 si vis pacem para bellum 
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               White armour , eh ? . (0 Replies). erdagon[]. 2/23/2002 10:44 (2/23/2002 10:44) 
 >> But I think we can all agree that an Artificer-armored, Jetpack-equipped, plasma-pistoled
 chaplain is one of the most devastating forces that we can unleash on our foes. Am I right? I'm
 right, I think.

 Well , not to be a pain up the ass , but I have to disagree here , I think that that GM you
 described with a jump pack is more destructive since the SoS give him 6 S6 attacks where as
 the