Sisters of Battle 1700 point Tournie results... Courage.
       Snake eyes trophy and a pretty decent set of results is the mark of a good player... kurisawa
 (2/25/2002 10:20). 
       RE: Sisters of Battle 1700 point Tournie results... armedandkilted (2/25/2002 10:20). 
       RE: Sisters of Battle 1700 point Tournie results... AnubisGOJ (2/25/2002 11:40). 
           RE: RE: Sisters of Battle 1700 point Tournie results... Courage (2/25/2002 11:58). 
               *teehee* I can almost hear the incredulous tone! :) kurisawa (2/25/2002 12:03). 
                   RE: *teehee* I can almost hear the incredulous tone! :) Courage (2/25/2002 13:18). 
                       Here's what I face... AnubisGOJ (2/25/2002 14:18). 
                           RE: Here's what I face... Courage (2/25/2002 14:28). 
                               RE: RE: Here's what I face... AnubisGOJ (2/25/2002 15:00). 
                                   RE: RE: RE: Here's what I face... Courage (2/26/2002 8:43). 
                           Fluff and lists are different ulthrion (2/25/2002 14:37). 
                               RE: Fluff and lists are different AnubisGOJ (2/25/2002 16:14). 
                                   Greatly disagree here ulthrion (2/25/2002 18:26). 
                                   Your changes make no sense carmachu (2/25/2002 19:31). 
                           must be a joke... derling (2/25/2002 17:17). 
                               RE: must be a joke... AnubisGOJ (2/25/2002 18:21). 
                                   On a more serious note.... ulthrion (2/25/2002 18:31). 
                                       RE: On a more serious note.... AnubisGOJ (2/25/2002 19:50). 
                                       RE: On a more serious note.... cwolf (2/25/2002 20:15). 
                                           One thought about beating Sisters with Tau... cwolf (2/26/2002 13:58). 
           I still think you have a good chance... RedShoulder (2/26/2002 18:41). 
       Mixed feeling about a basic squad ulthrion (2/25/2002 12:51). 
           RE: Mixed feeling about a basic squad Courage (2/25/2002 13:36). 
               Long time, no chat... ulthrion (2/25/2002 13:57). 
           RE: Mixed feeling about a basic squad cwolf (2/25/2002 13:44). 
       snake eyes huh? finally a trophy I can win!! derling (2/25/2002 13:31). 
           RE: snake eyes huh? finally a trophy I can win!! Courage (2/25/2002 14:22). 
               bastardliness...my new word of the week. derling (2/25/2002 15:18). 
                   RE: bastardliness...my new word of the week. Courage (2/25/2002 16:01). 
                   About your army list... RedShoulder (2/26/2002 17:29). 
               Always sweeping cwolf (2/25/2002 16:07). 
                   RE: Always sweeping Courage (2/26/2002 9:19). 
                       Analyzing the battle strat... Courage (2/26/2002 10:15). 
                           Your problem was carmachu (2/26/2002 15:07). 
                               RE: Your problem was Courage (2/26/2002 15:31). 
                                   RE: RE: Your problem was carmachu (2/26/2002 15:43). 
                                       RE: RE: RE: Your problem was Courage (2/26/2002 15:58). 
                                           RE: RE: RE: RE: Your problem was carmachu (2/26/2002 16:51). 
                               Bait and switch?... RedShoulder (2/26/2002 17:15). 
                                   RE: Bait and switch?... carmachu (2/26/2002 17:20). 
                                       Easier? What about closer?.. RedShoulder (2/26/2002 17:42). 
                                           RE: Easier? What about closer?.. dielkathan (2/27/2002 16:02). 
                                               Gaunts and Hormagaunts ulthrion (2/27/2002 16:06). 
                                                   RE: Gaunts and Hormagaunts Courage (2/27/2002 16:14). 
                                                       nice flamers you have ulthrion (2/27/2002 16:30). 
                                                           RE: nice flamers you have cwolf (2/27/2002 17:37). 
                                                               Ecclesiarchy Counterswarm... RedShoulder (2/27/2002
 21:26). 
                                                   Make those shots count... RedShoulder (2/27/2002 21:10). 
                                               RE: RE: Easier? What about closer?.. Courage (2/27/2002 16:10). 
                                                   RE: RE: RE: Easier? What about closer?.. dielkathan (2/27/2002
 17:48). 
                                                       What I cant wait for is carmachu (2/27/2002 18:38). 
                                                       More than one way to skin a...Gaunt?... RedShoulder
 (2/27/2002 20:56). 
                                               Never underestimate the fury of the swarm... RedShoulder
 (2/27/2002 21:03). 
       at least i handed the ork player his waaaagh dielkathan (2/26/2002 14:27). 
           RE: at least i handed the ork player his waaaagh Courage (2/26/2002 14:43). 
           RE: at least i handed the ork player his waaaagh carmachu (2/26/2002 14:59). 
       RE: at least i handed the ork player his waaaagh carmachu (2/26/2002 14:59). 
 
 

  Sisters of Battle 1700 point Tournie results... . (57 Replies). Courage[]. 2/25/2002 9:44 (2/27/2002 21:26) 
 Hey all, well I just had my first big tiurnament with the 1700 point SoB list which also serves
 as my tune up for the GT...

 A quick rundown
 Canoness w/ Celestians in Immolator

 Celestian squad Melta, H Flamer, mounted

 Dominion squad 4xflamer, mounted

 5 troop units Flamer, Melta

 10 strong Seraphim

 Ret squad 4 Hbolters

 Exorcist launcher

 Priestly delegation (every unit w/ Preacher)

 Let me preface by saying that I was given the snake eyes trophy for worst luck. I'm not
 kidding, this is a real trophy they award for the absolute worst dice rolling and I won hands
 down so temper all with that in mind...

 My record; 1 win, 1 draw, 2 losses...

 The first game against Eldar I won even though I could not take down any of his transports.
 We had to kidnap each other's general and he hid his way in the back. There was no way I
 could get to him and he flew to me but I was able to take him down despite his heavy duty
 firepower. A better player would have hosed me as I had no way to get to his HQ while he
 had 4 squads on my pos....

 The second game was against Dark Angels in a mission called "Confusion". In essence your
 army which is split into 3 groups ends up coming in each turn on random table edges. It's alot
 of fun but hard to nail down tactics and the 2nd player has the advantage, unless your rolling
 like I was.

 My opponent, a great guy by the way, had several razorbacks and rhinos. I kept on winding
 up behind his transports but could do nought but stun them time after time. He could not get
 his troops out but I couldn't get to them. I unleashed an unbelivable amount of firepower at
 them and did nothing but keep his troops trapped. We called it the "war that never was". we
 ended in a draw...

 The next game I drew against Blood Angels in a mission where we had to reach and hold
 each others base camp. He was running everything mounted plus a Demolisher and a pred.
 On top of this he had his Chaplain and death company AND a Sanguinary w/ lightning claws
 whose retinue was nicely Pwep'd up. I still hold that this is the most disgusting army in the
 game. The ability to reroll hits and wounds w/ 6 attacks is obscene in an army where speed
 and brutal charges are the norm.

 To be fair he was a nice guy, though I dinged him heavy on the army, and we screwed up as
 we both forgot that the victor can only consolidate after a Moral High Ground Victory. He ran
 down 3 above strength units this way. After the game I realized the mistake and am choosing
 to believe he had forgotten as well. He offered a draw but I declined. A wins a win.

 The fact that he was able to move up eveything he owned behind the pred so they made it
 quite safely to my base camp while I had to send my Celestians and Seraphim to his camp
 alone as I needed everything I had to take on the fire from a Demolisher and the onslaught of
 all but his Death company and a unit I managed to strand made things difficult. I managed to
 wipe the one unit out before the Death Company waded in. It was just ugly. He was left with
 his chaplain and 1 Marine but I had no backup to send.

 The last game was infuriating. I played an Orc player that 2 buddies had warned me about.
 He uses a 2nd ed army which is outdated so its difficult to make out what's what. The most
 dramatic effect was when 3 buggies with Big Shootas on them turned out to be armed on
 paper with missile launchas. He lit me up with them. I argued in a tournament game for the first
 time in my life. I told him that he owes it to reveal all if things aren't WYSIWYG. He
 apologized but I retorted that my deployment was contingent on not worrying about the
 buggies.

 He also wandered from the table several times I literally had to keep calling him back. He
 wasted so much time we only got in 2 turns. Because my dismal rolling kept me from blowing
 up his HQ truck they got into me on that second turn and the Buggies did their damage as well
 he won by 100 victory points. My army was literally poised to shred his left flank. And I mean
 I was about to hit him with everything but of course I only move 12 " at best while he moves
 24 and he ran down that clock.

 2 factors seriously hampered me. The first was my dismal rolling and that's nobody's fault. The
 other though was a complete inability to get anywhere fast. If I had been able to send a troop
 unit with Seraphim and even another Elite mounted you have some punch. But not being able
 to get basic troops where you need them is the absolute biggest failing in the current Sisters
 list.

 I could of course, have taken up the 2 fast attack slots by mounting 2 units in Rhinos but then
 my comp is totally in the crapper rather than marginal as it is now.

 I may decide to field another Rhino with a troop unit making them fast attack and lose the 6
 man Battle sister squad for the GT.

 The Canoness' leadership was another issue. She desperately needs to be at Ld10.

 I said it before, I will say it again; In standard meat grinders I will hold my own against any
 army. But when missions that require speed or crossing vast distances the Sisters have
 amazing problems.

 I will only add that had my luck been even a little better, everything I just wrote might have
 seemed different. 38 shots failed to crack an orc truck. 4 of them from the Exorcist and 3
 from Meltas.

 The exorcist by the way did abysmally bad.

 The next day at the Mega battle though, my sisters aquitted themselves well. There were 5 2k
 armies on either side of the 20feet of table and the dice gods seemed to smile on me that day
 as I held out nicely against a Demon heavy Chaos army. I was taking on Juggernauts and an
 army of T5 marines.

 Some days ya win, some days ya lose...

 Eric J 
 Reply 
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       Snake eyes trophy and a pretty decent set of results is the mark of a good player... . (0 Replies).
 kurisawa[]. 2/25/2002 10:20 (2/25/2002 10:20) 
 Let me preface by saying that I was given the snake eyes trophy for worst luck. I'm not
 kidding, this is a real trophy they award for the absolute worst dice rolling and I won hands
 down so temper all with that in mind...
 >> 
 >> My record; 1 win, 1 draw, 2 losses...

 **** That's 50%. What should be expected of "even" luck and opponents - that you got the
 bad luck trophy shows you pulled a bad luck day out of the bag. Kudos! ****

 >> The first game against Eldar I won even though I could not take down any of his
 transports. We had to kidnap each other's general and he hid his way in the back. There was
 no way I could get to him and he flew to me but I was able to take him down despite his
 heavy duty firepower. A better player would have hosed me as I had no way to get to his HQ
 while he had 4 squads on my pos....
 >>

 **** So, you didn't come close to capture the HQ, but you won? Hmmm, think you got
 away with that one, you wily one! :) ****

 >> The second game was against Dark Angels in a mission called "Confusion". In essence
 your army which is split into 3 groups ends up coming in each turn on random table edges. It's
 alot of fun but hard to nail down tactics and the 2nd player has the advantage, unless your
 rolling like I was.
 >> 
 >> My opponent, a great guy by the way, had several razorbacks and rhinos. I kept on
 winding up behind his transports but could do nought but stun them time after time. He could
 not get his troops out but I couldn't get to them. I unleashed an unbelivable amount of
 firepower at them and did nothing but keep his troops trapped. We called it the "war that
 never was". we ended in a draw...
 >>

 **** What a shame, that sounded like a potentially cool game. ****

 >> The next game I drew against Blood Angels in a mission where we had to reach and hold
 each others base camp. He was running everything mounted plus a Demolisher and a pred.
 On top of this he had his Chaplain and death company AND a Sanguinary w/ lightning claws
 whose retinue was nicely Pwep'd up. I still hold that this is the most disgusting army in the
 game. The ability to reroll hits and wounds w/ 6 attacks is obscene in an army where speed
 and brutal charges are the norm.
 >> 
 >> To be fair he was a nice guy, though I dinged him heavy on the army, and we screwed up
 as we both forgot that the victor can only consolidate after a Moral High Ground Victory. He
 ran down 3 above strength units this way. After the game I realized the mistake and am
 choosing to believe he had forgotten as well. He offered a draw but I declined. A wins a win.
 >> 

 **** Eh, so this was one of the draws above, or not? Base Camp could possibly be one of
 the worst agmes against BA - as rushing at your lines is what they do best anyway. Bad luck
 dude!! :) ****

 >> The fact that he was able to move up eveything he owned behind the pred so they made it
 quite safely to my base camp while I had to send my Celestians and Seraphim to his camp
 alone as I needed everything I had to take on the fire from a Demolisher and the onslaught of
 all but his Death company and a unit I managed to strand made things difficult. I managed to
 wipe the one unit out before the Death Company waded in. It was just ugly. He was left with
 his chaplain and 1 Marine but I had no backup to send.
 >> 
 >> The last game was infuriating. I played an Orc player that 2 buddies had warned me
 about. He uses a 2nd ed army which is outdated so its difficult to make out what's what. The
 most dramatic effect was when 3 buggies with Big Shootas on them turned out to be armed
 on paper with missile launchas. He lit me up with them. I argued in a tournament game for the
 first time in my life. I told him that he owes it to reveal all if things aren't WYSIWYG. He
 apologized but I retorted that my deployment was contingent on not worrying about the
 buggies.
 >>

 **** So no sportsmanship or army comp points for him then! :) ****

 >> He also wandered from the table several times I literally had to keep calling him back. He
 wasted so much time we only got in 2 turns. Because my dismal rolling kept me from blowing
 up his HQ truck they got into me on that second turn and the Buggies did their damage as well
 he won by 100 victory points. My army was literally poised to shred his left flank. And I mean
 I was about to hit him with everything but of course I only move 12 " at best while he moves
 24 and he ran down that clock.
 >> 

 **** Man, that's gotta be a draw then hasn't it!?!? I'd have appealed! ****

 >> 2 factors seriously hampered me. The first was my dismal rolling and that's nobody's fault.
 The other though was a complete inability to get anywhere fast. If I had been able to send a
 troop unit with Seraphim and even another Elite mounted you have some punch. But not being
 able to get basic troops where you need them is the absolute biggest failing in the current
 Sisters list.
 >> 

 **** *cough*IG*cough* ;P. We all got characteristics of our lists that we gotta deal with.
 We're all better at some things than others. ****

 >> I could of course, have taken up the 2 fast attack slots by mounting 2 units in Rhinos but
 then my comp is totally in the crapper rather than marginal as it is now.
 >> 
 >> I may decide to field another Rhino with a troop unit making them fast attack and lose the
 6 man Battle sister squad for the GT.
 >> 
 >> The Canoness' leadership was another issue. She desperately needs to be at Ld10.
 >>
 >> I said it before, I will say it again; In standard meat grinders I will hold my own against any
 army. But when missions that require speed or crossing vast distances the Sisters have
 amazing problems.
 >> 
 >> I will only add that had my luck been even a little better, everything I just wrote might have
 seemed different. 38 shots failed to crack an orc truck. 4 of them from the Exorcist and 3
 from Meltas.
 >>

 **** You failed to crack an Ork truck with a melta!?!?!?!? Wow you really deserved that
 trophy. ****

 >> The exorcist by the way did abysmally bad.
 >> 
 >> The next day at the Mega battle though, my sisters aquitted themselves well. There were 5
 2k armies on either side of the 20feet of table and the dice gods seemed to smile on me that
 day as I held out nicely against a Demon heavy Chaos army. I was taking on Juggernauts and
 an army of T5 marines.
 >> 
 >> Some days ya win, some days ya lose...
 >>

 **** You still got some winnin in ya for that luck to even out. Good luck in the GT! ****
 

 K. 
 Reply 
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       RE: Sisters of Battle 1700 point Tournie results... . (0 Replies). armedandkilted[]. 2/25/2002 10:20
 (2/25/2002 10:20) 
 congrats on the win, the nice shiny trophy and on coming back with a good attitude. i am
 recognized in my gaming group as the worst dice roller to ever play the game... when they
 award that trophy, it's named after me.

 it sounds like your experience reinforces alot of what's been said here- we need transports,
 we need to not run away and we need to not be obliged to structure our tactics around
 dealing with someone's armor. all thoses "get somewhere" mission are right out the window-
 the one where some has to punch through half of your army is the only one that's worse (i
 once had to hold off a mounted blood angels army with a battle squad, a retributer squad,
 some redempitionists, a canoness and an excorcist- yeah, right). anyway...

 keep up the good gaming! 
 Reply 
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       RE: Sisters of Battle 1700 point Tournie results... . (18 Replies). AnubisGOJ[]. 2/25/2002 11:40
 (2/26/2002 18:41) 
 It's good to see a Sisters of Battle player, but after fighting them week after week, you've got
 to admit that the army is broken on so many levels. You're right in the fact that if the Sisters
 have to move, they're going to be hinded. However, if the enemy has to come to them- they're
 almost certainly to win. They have the best complements of a Space Marine and Guard army.
 My Tau cannot out shoot them, and the Tyranids cannot out-assault them in the slightest.
 Nothing is worse then sending a full squad of Hormugaunts into a Sisters squad and not even
 getting a single kill...

 They are awesome at shooting and assault. They're just too good for their points. The Acts of
 Faith are completely unbalanced. I've used 6 different armies against them. My playing skills
 are not too bad, and I've placed 2nd twice in local tournaments. In the Eldar/Imperial
 campaign on Batreps.com, I won against tooled-up armies. So I have the experience.
 However I have not been able to find a single chink in their armor. 
 Reply 
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           RE: RE: Sisters of Battle 1700 point Tournie results... . (16 Replies). Courage[]. 2/25/2002 11:58
 (2/26/2002 13:58) 
 >> It's good to see a Sisters of Battle player, but after fighting them week after week, you've
 got to admit that the army is broken on so many levels. You're right in the fact that if the
 Sisters have to move, they're going to be hinded. However, if the enemy has to come to them-
 they're almost certainly to win. They have the best complements of a Space Marine and
 Guard army. My Tau cannot out shoot them, and the Tyranids cannot out-assault them in the
 slightest. Nothing is worse then sending a full squad of Hormugaunts into a Sisters squad and
 not even getting a single kill...
 >> 
 >> They are awesome at shooting and assault. They're just too good for their points. The
 Acts of Faith are completely unbalanced. I've used 6 different armies against them. My playing
 skills are not too bad, and I've placed 2nd twice in local tournaments. In the Eldar/Imperial
 campaign on Batreps.com, I won against tooled-up armies. So I have the experience.
 However I have not been able to find a single chink in their armor.

 **I'm not sure I read you correctly. Are you asserting that the SoB are broken in that they are
 too powerful? If that is what you are saying I'm going to allow you to support your declaration
 before I answer as I don't see any reasons cited in your post.

 As to the Acts, ahem... I've failed the Acts on too many occassions for anyone to tell me
 they're broken. But after your reply we'll get into that...

 Eric J 
 Reply 
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               *teehee* I can almost hear the incredulous tone! :) . (15 Replies). kurisawa[]. 2/25/2002 12:03
 (2/26/2002 13:58) 
 I'm not sure I read you correctly. Are you asserting that the SoB are broken in that they are
 too powerful? If that is what you are saying I'm going to allow you to support your declaration
 before I answer as I don't see any reasons cited in your post.
 >> 
 >> As to the Acts, ahem... I've failed the Acts on too many occassions for anyone to tell me
 they're broken. But after your reply we'll get into that...
 >> 
 >> Eric J

 **** I almost heard that disbelieving tone in your voice Eric. Now calm down, it might be a
 wind up! ;P

 Just goes to show for every opinion one way, there's another point of view.

 Who knows - maybe you just have no idea how to play them. Lol!!!

 (PS Declaration of neutrality - I don't know if they're balanced or not!!)

 K.

 PPS: Eric - you checked your e-mail recently? I left some goodies for you :) **** 
 Reply 
 Back To Thread Navigation 
 
 

                   RE: *teehee* I can almost hear the incredulous tone! :) . (14 Replies). Courage[]. 2/25/2002
 13:18 (2/26/2002 13:58) 
 >> I'm not sure I read you correctly. Are you asserting that the SoB are broken in that they
 are too powerful? If that is what you are saying I'm going to allow you to support your
 declaration before I answer as I don't see any reasons cited in your post.
 >> >> 
 >> >> As to the Acts, ahem... I've failed the Acts on too many occassions for anyone to tell
 me they're broken. But after your reply we'll get into that...
 >> >> 
 >> >> Eric J
 >> 
 >> **** I almost heard that disbelieving tone in your voice Eric. Now calm down, it might be
 a wind up! ;P
 >> 
 >> Just goes to show for every opinion one way, there's another point of view.
 >> 
 >> Who knows - maybe you just have no idea how to play them. Lol!!!
 >> 
 >> (PS Declaration of neutrality - I don't know if they're balanced or not!!)
 >> 
 >> K.
 >> 
 >> PPS: Eric - you checked your e-mail recently? I left some goodies for you :) ****

 **Someone Trojan Horsed my aol and due to aol's total lack of intelligence I have not gotten
 my account back up and running yet. Should be a coupl'a days...

 Eric J 
 Reply 
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                       Here's what I face... . (13 Replies). AnubisGOJ[]. 2/25/2002 14:18 (2/26/2002 13:58) 
 My opponent never uses Immolators, instead relying on sheer numbers to take down his
 opponents. His troops are bristling with all things Melta, and the Redemptionists are essentially
 fearless for only 5 points apiece. Talk about a screen that won't go away... Try facing down
 that many heavy weapons and you'll find yourself on the short of the stick.You're facing
 Power Armor that's screened by fearless troops- plus Spirit of the Martyr pretty much makes
 any hits from your normal weapons useless. Wow! They're Death Company now!

 Seraphim are a steal at 16 points, and when combined with combined with The Passion, will
 scythe right through most of my squads. Add in a Divine Guidance for even more nastiness.

 How does my opponent have so many faith points? He's got so many squads.

 My opponent never takes Immolators or Exorcist tanks. His philosophy (which is correct) is
 that it takes a helluva lot more shots to kill off the squad.

 The sheer amount of firepower volume they can kick out is unbelievable. They can
 consistently outshoot my Tau forces.

 I like the Sisters of Battle in theme and fluff. However, they are way too powerful compared
 to what their background suggests. Their armor save is too darn good for the points and
 capabilities.

 Players who have a hard time using this army are obviously loading up on expensive items and
 not relying on the ever-so-nasty basics. If you concentrate on massed troops, you'll have a
 much easier time. 
 Reply 
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                           RE: Here's what I face... . (2 Replies). Courage[]. 2/25/2002 14:28 (2/26/2002 8:43) 
 >> My opponent never uses Immolators, instead relying on sheer numbers to take down his
 opponents. His troops are bristling with all things Melta, and the Redemptionists are essentially
 fearless for only 5 points apiece. Talk about a screen that won't go away... Try facing down
 that many heavy weapons and you'll find yourself on the short of the stick.You're facing
 Power Armor that's screened by fearless troops- plus Spirit of the Martyr pretty much makes
 any hits from your normal weapons useless. Wow! They're Death Company now!
 >> 
 >> Seraphim are a steal at 16 points, and when combined with combined with The Passion,
 will scythe right through most of my squads. Add in a Divine Guidance for even more
 nastiness.
 >> 
 >> How does my opponent have so many faith points? He's got so many squads.
 >> 
 >> My opponent never takes Immolators or Exorcist tanks. His philosophy (which is correct)
 is that it takes a helluva lot more shots to kill off the squad.
 >> 
 >> The sheer amount of firepower volume they can kick out is unbelievable. They can
 consistently outshoot my Tau forces.
 >> 
 >> I like the Sisters of Battle in theme and fluff. However, they are way too powerful
 compared to what their background suggests. Their armor save is too darn good for the
 points and capabilities.
 >> 
 >> Players who have a hard time using this army are obviously loading up on expensive items
 and not relying on the ever-so-nasty basics. If you concentrate on massed troops, you'll have
 a much easier time.

 **I'm not having a hard time with them. I do well with them. I'm talking about this specific
 tournament. BA are not Tau, they will not be standing there for me to shoot at nor will they
 drop as easily to bolter fire.

 In my 1700 point army I have 101 models all in power armor. I have not yet had time to build
 Reds but I have 2 friends who play sisters who abhor them. To each his own...

 My Immolator has turned sections of the battlefield around. I took down half a unit of 1k sons
 with it after it was immobilized on sunday. Don't ask what it did to the Eldar...

 Eric J 
 Reply 
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                               RE: RE: Here's what I face... . (1 Replies). AnubisGOJ[]. 2/25/2002 15:00 (2/26/2002
 8:43) 
 That's way too many models to have Power Armor in a single army. Typically my group plays
 between 1500-2000 points. I thought my Imperial Guard were troop heavy. Gheesh! 
 Reply 
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                                   RE: RE: RE: Here's what I face... . (0 Replies). Courage[]. 2/26/2002 8:43 (2/26/2002
 8:43) 
 >> That's way too many models to have Power Armor in a single army. Typically my group
 plays between 1500-2000 points. I thought my Imperial Guard were troop heavy. Gheesh!

 **Its more like 90 in power armor as the rest are Preachers and vehicles (2Rhinos, an
 Immolator and an Exorcist)...

 I'm not sure I even know how to respond to someone who feels my army is troop heavy. That
 is the first time I've ever heard that argued...

 Eric J 
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                           Fluff and lists are different . (3 Replies). ulthrion[]. 2/25/2002 14:37 (2/25/2002 19:31) 
 Okay, what are U saying here?? SoB should get a bad list, because they are not the galaxy's
 most feared army??

 If that were the case, then the eldar would have an army list which allows you to decimate the
 enemy within a few game turn, without sustaining much losses.

 Okay, I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but please don't try to degrade the sisters,
 just because they aren't as popular as space armies.

 Farseer Ulthrion

 On a side note: a space marine army can essentially do almost the same as a SoB army. They
 don't get that many numbers, but they do get a hell lot more models than most people think,
 and they have ATSKNF, T4 and more options available to them.
 

 >> I like the Sisters of Battle in theme and fluff. However, they are way too powerful
 compared to what their background suggests. Their armor save is too darn good for the
 points and capabilities.
 >> 
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                               RE: Fluff and lists are different . (2 Replies).
 AnubisGOJ[anubisgoj@hotmail.com]. 2/25/2002 16:14 (2/25/2002 19:31) 
 They aren't Space Marines, no matter what people say. They are armored, but that armor
 should not be the same as a Marine's. I would make their armor 4+. However they are known
 for their martial prowess, so I would increase their WS. 

 Is it fair that Sisters get so much for fewer points? Being able to outnumber opponents is what
 gives the swarm armies their strength. Sisters can't have the best of all worlds (barring
 transports, but hey, the Seraphin are just fine on their own).Their armor combined with their
 numbers makes them nigh impossible for anyone in our group to beat.

 They're like basic marines in most respects, plus they get the acts of faith that tilts things over
 the edge. They're the Black Templars and Blood Angels combined, but no one complains...
 Why? Because no one's played them enough to realize it. Heck, every little rugrat out there
 either had Templars or Blood Angels, but few have Sisters... Probably because of the lack of
 plastics... 
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                                   Greatly disagree here . (0 Replies). ulthrion[]. 2/25/2002 18:26 (2/25/2002 18:26) 
 >> They aren't Space Marines, no matter what people say. They are armored, but that armor
 should not be the same as a Marine's. I would make their armor 4+. However they are known
 for their martial prowess, so I would increase their WS. 
 >> 

 Hello??? They have POWER ARMOUR.... It sais so in the fluff, it shows on the models, it's
 what makes the SoB what they are.....
 There is no way I will ever play with the SoB when having a 4+ save. That's a loss of over
 50% of survivability ( because there are a LOT of cheap AP4 weapons out there ).

 I am also against raising their WS, as I don't see them as martial girls. They believe that the
 emperor will protect them, and that's all. Surely they train, and seraphim are trained in the
 ancient arts of combat ( which used to mean that they could fire both pistols in 1 turn ). I find it
 against their nature to make them more combat-orientated. They are a short-ranged army, not
 combat-ninja's.
 

 >> Is it fair that Sisters get so much for fewer points? Being able to outnumber opponents is
 what gives the swarm armies their strength. Sisters can't have the best of all worlds (barring
 transports, but hey, the Seraphin are just fine on their own).Their armor combined with their
 numbers makes them nigh impossible for anyone in our group to beat.
 >> 

 Marines get extra cheap heavy weapon options, transport options, have more special weapon
 upgrades, more wargear, and the basic marine has +1WS, +1BS, +1S, +1T, +1I, and
 ATSKNF for only 5 points more.
 SoB don't get acts for free, they must pay for the preacher, and then pass a Ld test, which
 makes them a bit unreliable. SoB can run out of faith points, or out of units to use them, but
 marines can't run out of ATSKNF.

 I agree thatthe current sisters are quite good, but they are in no way overpowered. Have you
 ever tried to max out your space marine tactical squads??? I mean, take 60 marines in a 1000
 points battle???? 60 tacticals cost you a mere 900 points, which leaves out 100 points for
 equipment and plasmaguns/lascannons/heavy bolters.

 It works, truely. Most people don't realize it, but marine armies can field so many marines,
 that even the Eldar with starcannons have trouble getting them all out of the way.
 

 >> They're like basic marines in most respects, plus they get the acts of faith that tilts things
 over the edge. They're the Black Templars and Blood Angels combined, but no one
 complains... Why? Because no one's played them enough to realize it. Heck, every little rugrat
 out there either had Templars or Blood Angels, but few have Sisters... Probably because of
 the lack of plastics...
 >>

 See all of my comments above.

 Just a quick question, given the rules of C:CA, how much would you charge for a single battle
 sister??

 Farseer Ulthrion. 
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                                   Your changes make no sense . (0 Replies). carmachu[]. 2/25/2002 19:31
 (2/25/2002 19:31) 
 >> They aren't Space Marines, no matter what people say. They are armored, but that armor
 should not be the same as a Marine's. I would make their armor 4+. However they are known
 for their martial prowess, so I would increase their WS. 
 >> 

 Ok, their not marines, so you want to make'em 4+ save. THEN give'em martial prowess and
 WS4? WHY? it makes no sense.

 You do realize you you'll have to drop the points, if you're gonna drop the save? No way
 would I pay 10pts for a 4+ save model that cant hit the side of a barn 1/2 the time.

 >> Is it fair that Sisters get so much for fewer points? Being able to outnumber opponents is
 what gives the swarm armies their strength. Sisters can't have the best of all worlds (barring
 transports, but hey, the Seraphin are just fine on their own).Their armor combined with their
 numbers makes them nigh impossible for anyone in our group to beat.
 >> 

 EXCEPT, you havent been listening. THE BIGGEST weaknest the list has is: no MOBILITY.
 You have no idea how many games I lose 'cause I cant get a mass of troops from point a to
 point b.

 As for best of both BA and BT, I dont think so- -1 WS BS I S T doesnt make'em so. Add in
 you can only use acts once per turn per squad, and its dependent on 3 factors(faithfulness, LD
 test, faith points), while BA and BT get all their toys for free....

 carmachu 
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                           must be a joke... . (5 Replies). derling[]. 2/25/2002 17:17 (2/26/2002 13:58) 

 ***I am fairly certain that this a joke post, as most of the points made in it unconvincing at
 best when they are develloped at all.

 My opponent never uses Immolators, instead relying on sheer numbers to take down his
 opponents. 
 ***no rhinos either? while I do believe the army's groundpounders function well, they only do
 so under the support of their supported mechanized troops. 

 His troops are bristling with all things Melta, 
 *** okay...

 and the Redemptionists are essentially fearless for only 5 points apiece. Talk about a screen
 that won't go away... Try facing down that many heavy weapons and you'll find yourself on
 the short of the stick.
 ***personally, I think they are a good unit, but I think using them as heavy weapons toters is
 highly unsuccessful, particualarly as a screen you make mention of "Try facing down that many
 heavy weapons" to which I find oddly amusing, as this army can field at most 12 heavy
 weapons in it's troop allocation which can be pretty much rivaled by most armies. (and those
 who can't superscede them once they jump into all of the other force Org selections.

 You're facing Power Armor that's screened by fearless troops- plus Spirit of the Martyr pretty
 much makes any hits from your normal weapons useless. Wow! They're Death Company
 now!

 *** it is kinda nice...too bad they will have to fight their way to close range, losing models all
 the way to instakill weapons and then bring themselves dangerously close to assault. mean
 while, the "friend's" army which has very little in the way of speed will allow the initiative of the
 enemy force to consolidate his core shock units into a small portion of the SoB force, crushing
 it, and then using the momentum to pile into the next batch of the SoB.

 Seraphim are a steal at 16 points, and when combined with combined with The Passion, will
 scythe right through most of my squads. Add in a Divine Guidance for even more nastiness.
 ***they are a steal currently and additionally quite necesary.
 

 How does my opponent have so many faith points? He's got so many squads.
 ***how does this increase his faith points? I can only assume he's got a preacher in every
 squad. I'm not sure how your's friends number of faith points factos into to your need to retool
 the SoB army, something I do not think you will have a lot of success with....especially in the
 directions you've indicated.
 
 

 My opponent never takes Immolators or Exorcist tanks. His philosophy (which is correct) is
 that it takes a helluva lot more shots to kill off the squad.
 *** it's not a bad one, but it's not particularly a good one if it's not supported by mobile
 closed range troops. you'll have to pardon me if I don't automatically assume your "(which is
 correct)" to be correct though. Unless you are a GW games develloper in disguise, you have
 not shown significant merit to asume your claim is correct....particularly since you have an
 obvious bias....you commonly play against them.

 The sheer amount of firepower volume they can kick out is unbelievable. 
 *** it can be pretty darn good.....
 They can consistently outshoot my Tau forces.
 ***not that good. given the increased range and superiority of your weapons, you should be
 able to match him., particularly when you bolster the firepower with your battle suits.virtually
 all of the guns on the suit installkill an SoB, rendering"act of the martyr" useless.

 I like the Sisters of Battle in theme and fluff. However, they are way too powerful compared
 to what their background suggests. Their armor save is too darn good for the points and
 capabilities.
 ***I couldn't disagree more.

 Players who have a hard time using this army are obviously loading up on expensive items and
 not relying on the ever-so-nasty basics. 
 *** this might be an oversimplification. and by "might" , I really mean "is"
 If you concentrate on massed troops, you'll have a much easier time. 
 ***mostly agree with this. they do perform well with lots of troops. however, they require
 their other mechanized and mobile elements in the force to perform anything other than low
 scale in indecisive damage. I would say that if you are having problems with your SoB friend
 outshooting you, I would suggest the problem does not lie in the SoB codex but rather
 yourself (which is correct). 

 My use of '(which is correct)' is correct is probably an oversimplification as well, but be
 careful when trying to diminish an army's effectiveness while condeming people for losing with
 it. 
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                               RE: must be a joke... . (4 Replies). AnubisGOJ[]. 2/25/2002 18:21 (2/26/2002 13:58) 
 This post is no joke, and I appreciate your mature candor when speaking of it (After some of
 the boards I've been to, I expected a few rantings from poorly schooled primates).

 Maneuverbility is my opponent's only weakness. He can do a slow death march up the middle
 and use his numbers to protect him. Fearless redemptionists work well for these purposes.

 When factoring in Special Weapons, my humble opponent likes using Dominion Squads,
 chock full of Melta-Guns. That squad can have up to four. Range isn't a problem depending
 on the starting placement of his models. 

 I play many armies, and have been in the hobby since Advanced Space Crusade. I have at
 least 2000 points in: Tau, Dark Angels, Snakebite Orks, Harlequins, Necrons, Kroot
 Mercenaries, Dark Eldar, Eldar (Aliatoc) & all five elements of Chaos (counting Undivided. If
 I show a bias for or against a given army, it is accidental. Afterall, I figure I'm going to have
 them all sooner or later.

 For Tau vs Sisters- Basic Tau Fire Warriors vs Sisters, the Sisters will win. I have to punch a
 lot of holes in Redemtpionists to stop their screen. My troops cannot easily pop thier armor. 
 The Seraphim are a major threat to a Tau army. They can pop up the flanks and assault my
 front line- halting any direct firepower from my army, because we all know we cannot shoot
 through H-T-H. A wise sister player can hide behind cover and get those flying fems right in
 my face.

 The table we use is roughly the same size as the ones at the GW stores. Not too large. After a
 turn or two, most of their weapons are in range. Melta-armed Dominions in a Rhino can bite
 deeply into any army.

 My group believes that the Sisters will gain much more prominence once players start realizing
 how to play them. 
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                                   On a more serious note.... . (3 Replies). ulthrion[]. 2/25/2002 18:31 (2/26/2002 13:58)
 Well, I agree that the Tau are a bit difficult against SoB, but that is because the Tau really can't
 handle armour that well. They have only 1 major AP2 weapon ( ion-cannon), and that one
 only comes on the ....tank ( forgot name ).

 The same problem would occur when you are fighting marines. Their basic members are by
 far better than your fire warriors, at least in hth, but they almost match the fire warriors in
 shooting.

 SPace marines field lesser models than sisters, but they are tougher, and have MUCH better
 backup, in the form of heavy tanks, and other supporting weapons/squads.

 If you have such difficulty with SoB, why don't you have the same difficulty against marines??

 Farseer Ulthrion.
 
 

 >> For Tau vs Sisters- Basic Tau Fire Warriors vs Sisters, the Sisters will win. I have to
 punch a lot of holes in Redemtpionists to stop their screen. My troops cannot easily pop thier
 armor. 
 >> The Seraphim are a major threat to a Tau army. They can pop up the flanks and assault
 my front line- halting any direct firepower from my army, because we all know we cannot
 shoot through H-T-H. A wise sister player can hide behind cover and get those flying fems
 right in my face.
 >> 
 >> The table we use is roughly the same size as the ones at the GW stores. Not too large.
 After a turn or two, most of their weapons are in range. Melta-armed Dominions in a Rhino
 can bite deeply into any army.
 >> 
 >> My group believes that the Sisters will gain much more prominence once players start
 realizing how to play them. 
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                                       RE: On a more serious note.... . (0 Replies). AnubisGOJ[]. 2/25/2002 19:50
 (2/25/2002 19:50) 
 The Marine armies I have gone against tend to mount up in Razorbacks. This is a nasty
 combo, but tends to keep the squad sizes down. It's rare for one of my Marine opponents to
 have a squad not mounted up or on a bike. 

 It's a matter of numbers. 

 It's that reason why the Sisters are so nasty. Imagine shooting at an army that can give all of its
 non-redemptionists a second armor save ala' Death Company. How many instant kill or
 Power Weapons can I have in my army?

 Factor in the number of troops in a Sisters army- around 70 models- all in Power Armor, and
 you'v got a problem. By the time you whittle away the redemptionist screens, you're getting hit
 by meltas...

 Marines can be taken apart piece by piece. They have fewer numbers and less special
 weapons overall. 
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                                       RE: On a more serious note.... . (1 Replies). cwolf[]. 2/25/2002 20:15 (2/26/2002
 13:58) 

 >> If you have such difficulty with SoB, why don't you have the same difficulty against
 marines??
 >> 

 He's quite correct in not equating Sisters with Marines, I'm always amused when people use
 the old conventional wisdom of "Sisters are just weak marines, so this option that kills marines
 will work even better against them!", or "Sisters are just IG in power armour, so once I reach
 hand to hand combat with them they're dead!"

 I enjoy making a breakfast out of these people. The Ecclesiarchy army cannot be used like
 marines or IG, and should not be fought like marines or IG. The seemingly similar statlines and
 equipment are a big smokescreen.

 The big difference here is that you can get 1.5 Fire Warriors for every marine, a ratio that gets
 further exacerbated because the marine player has all those other goodies they take that eat
 up points, like Dreadnoughts and Predators. On the other hand the basic Battle Sister is the
 same cost as a Fire Warrior, and the Ecclesiarchy doesn't have those silly armoured
 distractions luring it from buying lots of soldiers :-P

 The current performance of the SOB seems to vary widely, some commanders regularly get
 their asses handed to them, others have unbroken winning streaks. Mine recently came to an
 end when I got schooled sideways by a Dark Angels army... the big difference (other than my
 tactical errors) was that he knew what he was up against and accounted for it.

 Mobility may be the only weakness of massed Sister troops, but it's a big one. Sixty sisters
 can become far less than that if you hit a flank. If it's true the table being played on is
 equivalent to those used at GW stores, though, it doesn't matter, those are just pathetically
 small areas to play on, 3'x3' on the average. They work well for cityfights, but armies like Tau
 and IG suffer tremendously from the lack of space. So I would say that definitely skews the
 results being tallied.

 It's also just an issue of Tau IMO-- Tau as an army are equipped to handle vehicles, small
 numbers of infantry with good saves, and large numbers of infantry with poor saves. The battle
 sisters happen to be able to field a large number of infantry with good saves. In my experience
 there's three efficient ways to counter that:

 - Ordnance blasts with Str6+ and/or AP3 or less (preferably both)
 - High rate of fire guns with Str 6+ and/or AP3 or less
 - Fast, tooled up characters, walkers, or beasties with Str6+ that ignore armour saves in close
 combat.

 Tau are severely limited in all three aspects. Most any other army has the ability to field
 something or several somethings with the above, which a Sisters player then has to avoid or
 neutralize for a chance at victory. The third in particular can really ruin your day, as with the
 aforementioned Dark Angels where a Str6 powerweapon striking on Initiative 5 was
 combined with a jump pack and an iron halo. 4 full Sister squads disappeared in the span of
 two turns :-P

 I do admit it's heartening to hear at least a few souls out there complain about Sisters being
 too good, between the vast majority of 40k players who laugh them off and the
 underwhelmed within the Sisters' own ranks, it can sometimes be hard to keep the faith.

 Reply 
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                                           One thought about beating Sisters with Tau... . (0 Replies). cwolf[].
 2/26/2002 13:58 (2/26/2002 13:58) 
 Actually I remember seeing this the first time I looked at a Tau list. Tau can cause a LOT of
 pinning tests, and everything in a SOB army is vulnerable to pinning, even the otherwise
 fearless Reds. All you have to do is kill one and a Leadership check has to be passed or the
 target unit can't move, shoot, or assault in the following turn... and you can force multiple
 pinning tests for a unit in a single shooting phase (one for each unit firing).

 Pin down the meat shield of Reds and it sounds like you could stop the whole advance in its
 tracks, since the Reds will be too close together for the Sisters behind to move through. Just
 get a whole bunch of Fire Warriors with an allotment of pulse carbines to each, or better yet
 gun drones that can zip in to fire and then back out of range of even a Passion-fueled charge.

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           I still think you have a good chance... . (0 Replies). RedShoulder[]. 2/26/2002 18:41 (2/26/2002 18:41) 
 >> It's good to see a Sisters of Battle player, but after fighting them week after week, you've
 got to admit that the army is broken on so many levels.

 Well, they do have some advantages. I don't think they are broken,but we'll get to that.

 >> You're right in the fact that if the Sisters have to move, they're going to be hindered.

 There are some Missions that are based on mobility. Mobility also offers a player a better
 chance to determine the time and range of engagement with the enemy.

 >> However, if the enemy has to come to them- they're almost certain to win.

 There are a lot of things the Sisters just cannot deal with in temrs of just standing and firing. I
 fought a Chaos Thousands Sons army recently, and having 66 Bolter rendered useles is no
 party. I only had 12 models left that could do any damage to his Troops through shooting.

 >> They have the best complements of a Space Marine and Guard army.

 They have a Marine's Bolter and Armor save, and can sometimes have the Guard's numbers.
 Sisters have the options of neither though. They are more survivable than Guard in close
 combat, but don't generally kill any more. Their stats are only human whigch can put them at a
 substantial disadvantage against Marines as well. Acts of Faith balance some of these factors
 out, but they are limited and subject to Leadership tests.

 >> My Tau cannot out shoot them, and the Tyranids cannot out-assault them in the slightest.

 Are you fielding as many Fire Warriors as your opponent is fielding Sisters?

 Do your 'Gaunts manage to hold them in close combat long enough for the really dangerous
 stuff to get in close? What about Biovores and Acid Mines? I have had some rather
 unpleasant experiences with those. Don't forget Warp Blast.

 >> Nothing is worse then sending a full squad of Hormugaunts into a Sisters squad and not
 even getting a single kill...
 >> 

 A full Brood of 32 couldn't get a single kill? Was your opponent just rolling well for armour
 saves and Spirit of teh Martyr checks?

 >> They are awesome at shooting and assault.

 This seems to be the only place where I really disagree. Sisters are AVERAGE at shooting.
 They do have a very good standard weapon, and they can fire a great number of them. The
 effects can some times be awsome when combined with Divine Guidance, but Sisters are not
 that awesome at shooting alone.

 The Sisters best weapons in assualt tend to be their Armor save and Leadership. They have a
 better chance to survive than many Troops, and a good chance to not break. The Sisters can
 take it, but they can't really dish it out. Strength, Toughness and Initiative of 3 really hurts them
 here. Spirit of the Martyr, the Passion and Divine Guidance can help them in close combat,
 but who can afford to spend 3 Faith points a turn on a single unit? They can get a really fast
 start, but they can't sustain that level of fighting. I don't think it is really feasible to try and field
 the Sisters as an "Assault" army. They just can't kill enough in close combat quickly enough.

 >> They're just too good for their points.

 The standard Battle Sister has an average statline, an above average Leadership, an excellent
 weapon and armor save, but no inherent special rules. For this she costs 2/3 more than an
 Imperial Guardsman and 1/3 less than a Space Marine. They seem to be an efficient
 middle-of-the-road Troop choice, but statistically and ruleswise, there isn't much special about
 them. I guess that gives them a certain "stealth" factor. That and the fact that they are women
 will keep a certain percentage (dare I say 'majority') from ever playing them.

 >> The Acts of Faith are completely unbalanced.

 They can be very effective, but they are limited. They simulate efeects that other units in the
 game get ALL OF THE TIME with no Leadership tests or points to run out of:

 1) Divine Guidance is similar to Rending Claws. While it can be used on shooting as well, it
 does not automatically cause a wound on a "6" so it is useless against a Wraithlord still, unless
 used with a Str 5 or better attack. Divine Guidance offers nothing against vehicles.

 2) Spirit of the Martyr works like the Blood Angels' Death Company shrug off roll. Sisters
 with only a Toughness of 3 though are much more susceptible to instant kill. There are plenty
 of Str 6 and 7 weapons outh there.

 3) The Passion combines Fleet of Foot with an additional Attack and an Initiative bonus. The
 Fleet of Foot rush must be made toward the nearest enemy though. There are plenty of other
 units in the game with more Attacks and a greater Initiative than the Sisters already. So while
 this strikes me as useful, it does not feel game breaking at all.

 4) Light of the Emperor is nice, but isn't it much better to be Fearless, Bonded or have And
 They Shall Know No Fear? Lots of units out there like that.

 >> I've used 6 different armies against them. My playing skills are not too bad, and I've
 placed 2nd twice in local tournaments. In the Eldar/Imperial campaign on Batreps.com, I won
 against tooled-up armies. So I have the experience. However I have not been able to find a
 single chink in their armor.

 You make intelligent arguments and seem to have good knowledge of the rules. I think you
 are just venting a bit of frustration. The Sisters of Battle may look like a cross-section of
 Marines and Guard, but don't play like either. Subsequently, you can't play against them like
 they are either of those two armies. The Sisters seem to defy a lot of obvious tactics.

 I don't think you are whining about this either. I am sure you will approach the Sisters with a
 fresh perspective and find something that works for you... 
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       Mixed feeling about a basic squad . (3 Replies). ulthrion[]. 2/25/2002 12:51 (2/25/2002 13:57) 
 First off let me congratulate you on your win.

 The army looks nice, but when I read it, my first thought was that you could have transferred
 some sister squads to become fast attack choices, to add some mobility. But you found out
 the hard way eventually.

 Also, I belive this is one of the first times that I actually hear you complain about the basic
 sister squad ( at least, I can't remember seeing you complain about them ).

 I agree that theuy desperately need transport. I have posted by results of a battle some while
 ago now, and I won solely to the fact that my opponent's nids were coming for me.

 About several other posts on this topic. One person drew the comparison between IG squads
 and Battle sisters squads. Well, that's not a nice thing to do... SoB are very different from IG
 squads. The fact that a normal IG squad cannot have transport doesn't hurt the army too
 much, as the theme of the army is to sit and shoot. The basic squad's weapon options take this
 into account ( having access to plasmaguns and heavy weapons ). Battle sister squads have
 only short ranged weapons to chose from
 ( flamer/meltagun ), so for them it is much worse to have no means of transportation.

 Some other dude posted that the common sister is a bit too good. I have mixed feelings about
 this. As much as I believe that the Sisters need transport, and something akin to ATSKNF,
 there is something inside me saying that these things come at a cost. On the other hand, you
 have space marines, who have all this, plus cheap weapon options and far better stats, at only
 a marginally higher price.

 This is quite a difficult issue. I would personally like them to be 10 points, maybe 11, but not
 more. I like the fact that I can field a lot of power armoured girls at a relatively cheap price.
 However, I do want Acts of Faith and transports to become available to the basic sister
 squad again ( without the aid of preachers ), but I don't know if I am willing to pay the
 accompanied price on these options.

 Well, I know for sure that I still don't know how to solve such a thing, maybe any of you
 does??

 Farseer Ulthrion. 
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           RE: Mixed feeling about a basic squad . (1 Replies). Courage[]. 2/25/2002 13:36 (2/25/2002 13:57) 
 >> First off let me congratulate you on your win.
 >> 
 >> The army looks nice, but when I read it, my first thought was that you could have
 transferred some sister squads to become fast attack choices, to add some mobility. But you
 found out the hard way eventually.
 >> 

 **Hey Farseer how are ya?! I may yet do that.The problem is with comp and I feel its wrong
 for me to have to kill my comp score just to allow an extra Rhino. I don't want to go over old
 ground so I'll just leave it at that.

 >> Also, I belive this is one of the first times that I actually hear you complain about the basic
 sister squad ( at least, I can't remember seeing you complain about them ).
 >> 

 **I really hope I didn't come over as complaining about the basic Sister troop, I love them
 and feel they are just about the best most versatile and resilient troop choices in the game. My
 point was merely to show that if you need to get to something or somewhere fast, or need to
 traverse a distance you are at a tremendous disadvantage.

 >> I agree that theuy desperately need transport. I have posted by results of a battle some
 while ago now, and I won solely to the fact that my opponent's nids were coming for me.
 >> 

 **Yep...

 >> About several other posts on this topic. One person drew the comparison between IG
 squads and Battle sisters squads. Well, that's not a nice thing to do... SoB are very different
 from IG squads. The fact that a normal IG squad cannot have transport doesn't hurt the army
 too much, as the theme of the army is to sit and shoot. The basic squad's weapon options take
 this into account ( having access to plasmaguns and heavy weapons ). Battle sister squads
 have only short ranged weapons to chose from
 >> ( flamer/meltagun ), so for them it is much worse to have no means of transportation.
 >> 

 **This is the old ground I was staying away from. Take away my right hand and my left will
 adapt. Take away my right hand and my left will adapt. Take away both my hands and I'm left
 with a smelly ass...

 GW took away both APC's and Heavy weps.....

 >> Some other dude posted that the common sister is a bit too good. I have mixed feelings
 about this. As much as I believe that the Sisters need transport, and something akin to
 ATSKNF, there is something inside me saying that these things come at a cost. On the other
 hand, you have space marines, who have all this, plus cheap weapon options and far better
 stats, at only a marginally higher price.
 >> 

 **{sigh}... You know what? When a Sisters army works right and everything meshes they
 are a very destructive force. The ACTS can seem very overpowering when they all work.
 Being able to bring a multitude of Flamers to bear can be very daunting.

 But things don't always go as planned, Ld tests fail and sometimes you fail to get your flamers
 in range or fail to wound...

 you have to remember that most of my issues stem from tournament play. In one off games I'll
 field the 2 FA choices but in all the leagues and tournies I play Comp affects your Army
 selection and your Sportsmanship.

 >> This is quite a difficult issue. I would personally like them to be 10 points, maybe 11, but
 not more. I like the fact that I can field a lot of power armoured girls at a relatively cheap
 price. However, I do want Acts of Faith and transports to become available to the basic sister
 squad again ( without the aid of preachers ), but I don't know if I am willing to pay the
 accompanied price on these options.
 >> 

 **Well, here we differ. I think its very in character to have Preachers. The Sisters are a
 church army, led by Spiritual leaders aka Preachers. I have 4 male and 4 female Preachers
 and I love them. I think that the Sisters are soldiers first and the Preachers guide and channel
 their religious fervor. But that's just me...

 >> Well, I know for sure that I still don't know how to solve such a thing, maybe any of you
 does??
 >> 
 >> Farseer Ulthrion.

 **Been workin' on it. Let's see what Ordo Hereticus brings us...

 Eric J 
 Reply 
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               Long time, no chat... . (0 Replies). ulthrion[]. 2/25/2002 13:57 (2/25/2002 13:57) 
 >> >> First off let me congratulate you on your win.
 >> >> 
 >> >> The army looks nice, but when I read it, my first thought was that you could have
 transferred some sister squads to become fast attack choices, to add some mobility. But you
 found out the hard way eventually.
 >> >> 
 >> 
 >> **Hey Farseer how are ya?! I may yet do that.The problem is with comp and I feel its
 wrong for me to have to kill my comp score just to allow an extra Rhino. I don't want to go
 over old ground so I'll just leave it at that.
 >>

 I'm good as always, thank you. I agree we shouldn'y go over old ground too much, so let's
 leave it with this. Besides, what's the point about argueing about something that we both agree
 on.

 On a side note, I forgot about the effect on army comp, so that's why I made the suggestion of
 fielding F.A. choices.
 

 >> >> Also, I belive this is one of the first times that I actually hear you complain about the
 basic sister squad ( at least, I can't remember seeing you complain about them ).
 >> >> 
 >> 
 >> **I really hope I didn't come over as complaining about the basic Sister troop, I love them
 and feel they are just about the best most versatile and resilient troop choices in the game. My
 point was merely to show that if you need to get to something or somewhere fast, or need to
 traverse a distance you are at a tremendous disadvantage.
 >> 

 I know you aren't complaining about the common sister. She is just too good to complain
 about ( both game and model-wise ).
 I am fully aware of your point, and I fully agree here.
 

 >> >> About several other posts on this topic. One person drew the comparison between IG
 squads and Battle sisters squads. Well, that's not a nice thing to do... SoB are very different
 from IG squads. The fact that a normal IG squad cannot have transport doesn't hurt the army
 too much, as the theme of the army is to sit and shoot. The basic squad's weapon options take
 this into account ( having access to plasmaguns and heavy weapons ). Battle sister squads
 have only short ranged weapons to chose from
 >> >> ( flamer/meltagun ), so for them it is much worse to have no means of transportation.
 >> >> 
 >> 
 >> **This is the old ground I was staying away from. Take away my right hand and my left
 will adapt. Take away my right hand and my left will adapt. Take away both my hands and
 I'm left with a smelly ass...
 >> 
 >> GW took away both APC's and Heavy weps.....
 >>

 Well, about that covering old ground.....No, let's not do it...... (although I must say that I just
 needed to say somewhere that I disagreed with this point of view ).
 

 >> >> Some other dude posted that the common sister is a bit too good. I have mixed
 feelings about this. As much as I believe that the Sisters need transport, and something akin to
 ATSKNF, there is something inside me saying that these things come at a cost. On the other
 hand, you have space marines, who have all this, plus cheap weapon options and far better
 stats, at only a marginally higher price.
 >> >> 
 >> 
 >> **{sigh}... You know what? When a Sisters army works right and everything meshes they
 are a very destructive force. The ACTS can seem very overpowering when they all work.
 Being able to bring a multitude of Flamers to bear can be very daunting.
 >> 
 >> But things don't always go as planned, Ld tests fail and sometimes you fail to get your
 flamers in range or fail to wound...
 >> 
 >> you have to remember that most of my issues stem from tournament play. In one off games
 I'll field the 2 FA choices but in all the leagues and tournies I play Comp affects your Army
 selection and your Sportsmanship.
 >> 

 I know the sisters are highly effective when everything goes according to plan, but if you play
 troop-heavy ( with a good mix of faith points ), you can send 2 squads to do the work of 1,
 and be reasonably sure of success. This, of course doesn't always work, especially the 'send'
 part ( without transports, that gets hard, but you know what I mean.. ).

 However hard a common battle sister squad may seem ( for it's points cost ), they are almost
 helpless against fast-noving assault troops. Hormagaunts might not shake them too much (
 although you will get a few girls killed ), but most marines in rhino's are simply too difficult to
 counter with the current list, and the marine's power weapon makes for a good slaughtering of
 your precious power armoured girls.

 I personally don't play in any tournaments ( I don't have enough models painted, and it takes
 me a few years before I finally get anything painted ). I would really like to play in
 tournaments, but it's not going to be anytime soon.

 >> >> This is quite a difficult issue. I would personally like them to be 10 points, maybe 11,
 but not more. I like the fact that I can field a lot of power armoured girls at a relatively cheap
 price. However, I do want Acts of Faith and transports to become available to the basic sister
 squad again ( without the aid of preachers ), but I don't know if I am willing to pay the
 accompanied price on these options.
 >> >> 
 >> 
 >> **Well, here we differ. I think its very in character to have Preachers. The Sisters are a
 church army, led by Spiritual leaders aka Preachers. I have 4 male and 4 female Preachers
 and I love them. I think that the Sisters are soldiers first and the Preachers guide and channel
 their religious fervor. But that's just me...
 >>

 Yes, we do disagree here. I personally think that the sisters ( who devout their entire life to
 worshipping the emperor ) should be quite faithful from themselves.
 Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea of preachers hanging around the army. I don't like the
 fact that you are dependant on them for faith.
 I also see the sisters as soldiers, but then more like soldiers who undoubtly believe in the
 emperor, and have the ultimate trust in him to save them from their doom. they win simply
 because they believe that that is what the emperor wants.

 Well, it's been a while since we've seen eachother, may the light of the dice-emperor clear
 your path to victory next time...

 Farseer Ulthrion. 
 Reply 
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           RE: Mixed feeling about a basic squad . (0 Replies). cwolf[]. 2/25/2002 13:44 (2/25/2002 13:44) 
 >> Well, I know for sure that I still don't know how to solve such a thing, maybe any of you
 does??
 >> 

 Simple enough, the Rhinos return to the troops in some fashion and an option for faithfulness
 without preachers occurs (I've always preferred a VSS upgrade solution there). The latter is
 pretty much cosmetic, the former is a necessity. I tried out a game the other day using IG for
 the first time, fighting Tau, and watching as a squad a turn was wiped out by a single Stealth
 team that kept jinking in and out of cover... I kept thinking how my Sisters troopers would've
 all but shrugged off the same volley :-)

 The only time Sisters really start dying in droves are when they're hit by heavy ordnance,
 massed starcannon/plasma cannons, or assaulted by something with lots of armour defeating
 attacks. Nothing else deals with them easily, in my experience... so of course my first priority
 in any battle is to neutralize the above threats.

 As for ATSKNF, we already have a version of it by using Light of the Emperor, and the
 overrun issue looks to be on its way out under the new assault rule proposals.

 Reply 
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       snake eyes huh? finally a trophy I can win!! . (27 Replies). derling[]. 2/25/2002 13:31 (2/27/2002 21:26) 
 ***Sorry to hear about the bad dice man.

 My record; 1 win, 1 draw, 2 losses...

 The last game was infuriating. I played an Orc player that 2 buddies had warned me about.
 He uses a 2nd ed army which is outdated so its difficult to make out what's what. The most
 dramatic effect was when 3 buggies with Big Shootas on them turned out to be armed on
 paper with missile launchas. He lit me up with them. I argued in a tournament game for the first
 time in my life. I told him that he owes it to reveal all if things aren't WYSIWYG. He
 apologized but I retorted that my deployment was contingent on not worrying about the
 buggies.

 He also wandered from the table several times I literally had to keep calling him back. He
 wasted so much time we only got in 2 turns. Because my dismal rolling kept me from blowing
 up his HQ truck they got into me on that second turn and the Buggies did their damage as well
 he won by 100 victory points. My army was literally poised to shred his left flank. And I mean
 I was about to hit him with everything but of course I only move 12 " at best while he moves
 24 and he ran down that clock.

 2 factors seriously hampered me. The first was my dismal rolling and that's nobody's fault. The
 other though was a complete inability to get anywhere fast. If I had been able to send a troop
 unit with Seraphim and even another Elite mounted you have some punch. But not being able
 to get basic troops where you need them is the absolute biggest failing in the current Sisters
 list.
 ***bad luck will kill the best of strategies regardless of skill. about your second point which
 I'm not completely disagreeing with, I do have questions and comments.
 ***1. you had 3 other mechanized units in the army besides the seraphim. why was your
 attack not coordinated using these units rather than feeling that your methods were limited by
 the slow troops squads. I would also ask why your machanized and fast troops did not slow
 their assault down for the remaining units to keep up (using their mobilty to find cover, limit
 LOS, and achieve better position outside of attack range) 
 ***2. as I went through your list I noticed that there is about a 200 point difference between
 what you mentioned and the 1700 point max. I allotted for all of the options mentioned plus a
 modest amount of wargear on the units mentioned. did you spend a ton on Veteren sisters,and
 overly healthy Command squad and the like? this could also attribute to the seeming army
 failure, as those points could have been spent on maxing out troop choices and adding another
 FA choice. This again would not be indicative of an army failure.

 >> I could of course, have taken up the 2 fast attack slots by mounting 2 units in Rhinos but
 then my comp is totally in the crapper rather than marginal as it is now.

 ***3. I pointed out a 1700 to check out the effects and I had 6 troops(3 maxed, 1 almost, 2
 half) 3 FA choices, 2 HS, and 1 elite that had 8 faithpoints, a good number of heavy
 weapons, 5 mobile units and 110 models. (I can post the list if you want). my Comp would
 have been at least decent ot my understanding and I feel I would have had a healthy capacity
 to fight a stand and fire or a rapidly moving strategy.
 

 The Canoness' leadership was another issue. She desperately needs to be at Ld10.

 *** can't say I disagree or agree with this...haven't given it thought. I don't think it would be
 out of line with a point increase though.

 I said it before, I will say it again; In standard meat grinders I will hold my own against any
 army. But when missions that require speed or crossing vast distances the Sisters have
 amazing problems.
 ***can't say I've shared this problem yet as long as I don't have to move more than 18-24"
 inches. if you missions involve having to cross the whole table, then I'd suggest using your slow
 troops to concentrate on stopping the otherguys from the the same while your fast ones stick
 to escape duty.

 The next day at the Mega battle though, my sisters aquitted themselves well. There were 5 2k
 armies on either side of the 20feet of table and the dice gods seemed to smile on me that day
 as I held out nicely against a Demon heavy Chaos army. I was taking on Juggernauts and an
 army of T5 marines.
 *** it's good to at least hear that. it's hard taking losses in a row. 
 Reply 
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           RE: snake eyes huh? finally a trophy I can win!! . (26 Replies). Courage[]. 2/25/2002 14:22 (2/27/2002
 21:26) 
 >> ***1. you had 3 other mechanized units in the army besides the seraphim. why was your
 attack not coordinated using these units rather than feeling that your methods were limited by
 the slow troops squads. I would also ask why your machanized and fast troops did not slow
 their assault down for the remaining units to keep up (using their mobilty to find cover, limit
 LOS, and achieve better position outside of attack range) 

 }}}}Remember that my rolling truly was dismal so everything basically fell apart. But lets take
 the 2 losses; The first against BA; The base camps we were protecting were about 50 inches
 apart. His army is designed to cross vast amounts of ground quickly. By turn 2 he was
 disembarking to take on the units in front of my camp.

 My Seraphim and mounted Celestians made it to his base camp by turn4. My Dominions lost
 their ride to the Demolisher cannon along with a good deal of Sisters. He had 4 turns to take
 me down with the bulk of his army including his Sanguinary plus retinue while I had my
 Seraphim and Celestians to take on a unit of marines and the Death Company. Nice to have 2
 badass HQ's to play with... Again, better dice rolling and this game could have gone the other
 way. His Chaplain and Death company were not jet packed so I figured it wouldn't be "too"
 difficult to jump out of combat into some relative cover 13" away. I rolled 3 deuces giving him
 a nice firing line before assaulting them...

 The second loss was purely due to bad dice and the opponent intentionally wasting the clock.
 Funny how just when my forces were about to lace into him we ran out of time. 2 friggin turns.
 He literally won by a hundred points even though I controlled more of the quarters. That was
 the only game I was upset about. I had an absolute ball with Zane, the BA player. My army is
 "The Sisters of the Wounded Heart" while his are the "Purple Hearts". And yes, every joke
 you can think of we used...

 Got a question for ya; The rule is that a unit that wins Moral Highground after a drawn combat
 can only consolidate and can not pursue the fleeing unit. Does the "always sweep' rule of the
 BA supercede that? I lost 3 above strength units that way and after the game I was reminded
 about the Moral Highground rule that we both forgot...
 
 

 >> ***2. as I went through your list I noticed that there is about a 200 point difference
 between what you mentioned and the 1700 point max. I allotted for all of the options
 mentioned plus a modest amount of wargear on the units mentioned. did you spend a ton on
 Veteren sisters,and overly healthy Command squad and the like? this could also attribute to
 the seeming army failure, as those points could have been spent on maxing out troop choices
 and adding another FA choice. This again would not be indicative of an army failure.
 >> 

 **4 troops were maxed plus Preacher. 1 unit was at 6 w/Preacher.All had VSS.

 The HQ was the Canoness, VSS, Melta, HFlamer and Bolter.

 Dominions in Rhino w/ Preacher

 Celestians w/ Preacher in Rhino.

 2 Pweps in the army. I don't use wargear. I may in the future as I experiment with the army.
 There are 101 models in the army. Its healthy and I generally do well with them.

 >> >> I could of course, have taken up the 2 fast attack slots by mounting 2 units in Rhinos
 but then my comp is totally in the crapper rather than marginal as it is now.
 >> 
 >> ***3. I pointed out a 1700 to check out the effects and I had 6 troops(3 maxed, 1
 almost, 2 half) 3 FA choices, 2 HS, and 1 elite that had 8 faithpoints, a good number of heavy
 weapons, 5 mobile units and 110 models. (I can post the list if you want). my Comp would
 have been at least decent ot my understanding and I feel I would have had a healthy capacity
 to fight a stand and fire or a rapidly moving strategy.
 >> 

 }}}I'd like to see the list...

 >> 
 >> The Canoness' leadership was another issue. She desperately needs to be at Ld10.
 >> 
 >> *** can't say I disagree or agree with this...haven't given it thought. I don't think it would
 be out of line with a point increase though.
 >> 
 >> I said it before, I will say it again; In standard meat grinders I will hold my own against any
 army. But when missions that require speed or crossing vast distances the Sisters have
 amazing problems.
 >> ***can't say I've shared this problem yet as long as I don't have to move more than
 18-24" inches. if you missions involve having to cross the whole table, then I'd suggest using
 your slow troops to concentrate on stopping the otherguys from the the same while your fast
 ones stick to escape duty.
 >> 

 }}}That was just the problem. 3 of the missions involved crossing a minimum of 35" but more
 like 40 to be sure. The funny thing is that against the Eldar player I decided to say the hell with
 the objective (his HQ) and I just wiped out his army instead giving me the victory. I was better
 off not going after the objectives and that bothers me...

 >> The next day at the Mega battle though, my sisters aquitted themselves well. There were 5
 2k armies on either side of the 20feet of table and the dice gods seemed to smile on me that
 day as I held out nicely against a Demon heavy Chaos army. I was taking on Juggernauts and
 an army of T5 marines.
 >> *** it's good to at least hear that. it's hard taking losses in a row.

 }}}}Well, I had a great time at the Tournie. The only legit loss was to the BA player and it
 was hard fought for him which is all I can ever ask of any battle I'm in. The Ork game as far as
 I was concerned was a bogus display of trickery and bastardliness (not dastardliness). I was
 warned about the player by 3 others...

 Eric J 
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               bastardliness...my new word of the week. . (2 Replies). derling[]. 2/25/2002 15:18 (2/26/2002
 17:29) 
 Those sounds like some tough games and I can certaily see how that orc player was
 frustrating to play. that buggy armament deal would have made me furious. WYSIWYG is
 one of the core rules of the GTs isn't it? how was he allowed to do this? shouldn't the judges
 called him on it (or could you have done something about it?). I've never been to GT, so I
 don't know. you also pay a big chunk of money to enter that one don't ya? to have a guy pull
 that kind of stuff sounds frustrating to say the least.
 

 >>Got a question for ya; The rule is that a unit that wins Moral Highground after a drawn
 combat can only consolidate and can not pursue the fleeing unit. Does the "always sweep' rule
 of the BA supercede that? I lost 3 above strength units that way and after the game I was
 reminded about the Moral Highground rule that we both forgot...
 no solid evidence, but I'd have to imagine that the BA rule would not superscede the existing
 rules. I think the "Always sweep" rule is meant to imply that you do not get the choice but to
 sweep. however, if a squad does not have the option to sweep because of a rule , they can't. I
 would assume that BA terminators cannot sweep for the same reason. 
 
 

 >> ***2. as I went through your list I noticed that there is about a 200 point difference
 between what you mentioned and the 1700 point max. I allotted for all of the options
 mentioned plus a modest amount of wargear on the units mentioned. did you spend a ton on
 Veteren sisters,and overly healthy Command squad and the like? this could also attribute to
 the seeming army failure, as those points could have been spent on maxing out troop choices
 and adding another FA choice. This again would not be indicative of an army failure.
 >> 

 **4 troops were maxed plus Preacher. 1 unit was at 6 w/Preacher.All had VSS.

 I could have done the math wrong. as the only thing I seemd to have gotten rith in the mix was
 the all VSS's. lots plasma pistols maybe? heavy cannoness?
 

 >> ***3. I pointed out a 1700 to check out the effects and I had 6 troops(3 maxed, 1
 almost, 2 half) 3 FA choices, 2 HS, and 1 elite that had 8 faithpoints, a good number of heavy
 weapons, 5 mobile units and 110 models. (I can post the list if you want). my Comp would
 have been at least decent ot my understanding and I feel I would have had a healthy capacity
 to fight a stand and fire or a rapidly moving strategy.
 >> 
 }}}I'd like to see the list...

 I've posted it at the bottom...
 

 >> I said it before, I will say it again; In standard meat grinders I will hold my own against any
 army. But when missions that require speed or crossing vast distances the Sisters have
 amazing problems.
 >> ***can't say I've shared this problem yet as long as I don't have to move more than
 18-24" inches. if you missions involve having to cross the whole table, then I'd suggest using
 your slow troops to concentrate on stopping the otherguys from the the same while your fast
 ones stick to escape duty.
 >> 

 }}}That was just the problem. 3 of the missions involved crossing a minimum of 35" but more
 like 40 to be sure. The funny thing is that against the Eldar player I decided to say the hell with
 the objective (his HQ) and I just wiped out his army instead giving me the victory. I was better
 off not going after the objectives and that bothers me...
 I think that is more a problem with the mission than the army. SoBs aren't the only army that
 would not enjoy (or even be capable) of trudging more than 35"+ inches in a game. you want
 a mission to force movement, but that's ridculous. for the same reason I don't think the "you
 line up on one side, I'll line up on the other and we'll start shooting until 1 army is dead"
 missions are particularly swell either.
 

 Derling's Xcel Sheet 1700 pt SoB army

 HQ 
 CannonessArielle plasmapistol, Power Weapon frag and krak grenades 68 
 command sqaudX9 sister famolous, meltagun, Heavy Flamer,, sister Dialogous 153 
 Rhino smoke launchers, extra armor 53 
 
 

 Elite 
 Priestly DelegationX.2 bolt pistol and close combat weapons 12
 

 Troops 
 BattleSquadX10 2 flamers 106 
 BattleSquadX10 10 106 
 BattleSquadX10 10 2 meltaguns 120 
 redemptionistsX17 mob weapons, leader with close combat weapon. 2 grenade
 launchers,zealot 128 
 BattleSquadX5 50 
 BattleSquadX5 50 
 

 Fast Attack 
 Seraphim SquadX9 16 2 Flamer Pistols, Frags,krak grenades,power weapon 182 
 Seraphim SquadX5 16 2 Flamer Pistols, Frags, powerweapon, meltabombs 120 
 Mechanized SOB squadX9 2meltaguns, Vet sister with Flail, meltabombs, and pistol Rhino
 with smoke 183 

 Heavy Support 
 Iron Fist Sqaud10 6 LasCannon, Plasma gun 88 
 Chimera Hull Heavy Bolter, Autolaunchers, MultiLaser 88 

 Retributor SquadX5 3 HBs 80 

 exorcist 100 
 Total Num models 110 points 1699 Faith 8 
 Reply 
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                   RE: bastardliness...my new word of the week. . (0 Replies). Courage[]. 2/25/2002 16:01
 (2/25/2002 16:01) 
 >> Those sounds like some tough games and I can certaily see how that orc player was
 frustrating to play. that buggy armament deal would have made me furious. WYSIWYG is
 one of the core rules of the GTs isn't it? how was he allowed to do this? shouldn't the judges
 called him on it (or could you have done something about it?). I've never been to GT, so I
 don't know. you also pay a big chunk of money to enter that one don't ya? to have a guy pull
 that kind of stuff sounds frustrating to say the least.
 >> 
 >> 

 **Oh no, this was not the GT. That's in a coupl'a weeks. This is Carnage in the Park. Its a
 tournie that GW actually wants to RT approve but the owner doesn't want the restrictions...

 Eric J 
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                   About your army list... . (0 Replies). RedShoulder[]. 2/26/2002 17:29 (2/26/2002 17:29) 

 >> Derling's Xcel Sheet 1700 pt SoB army
 >> 
 >> HQ 
 >> Cannoness Arielle plasmapistol, Power Weapon frag and krak grenades 68 

 Wow! You even spell her name the exact same way as I spell my Canoness'. Mine weighs in
 a bit heavier on points, because of how I did the conversion. I don't feel like ripping the Jump
 Pack, Cloak or Rosarius off the mini...

 >> command sqaudX9 sister famolous, meltagun, Heavy Flamer,, sister Dialogous 153 
 >> Rhino smoke launchers, extra armor 53 
 >> 

 Interesting. You went with the two expensive Celestian upgrades... I see the IG squad below,
 but what attracted you to the Dialogus? Not that I find anything wrong with her, I'm just
 curious as to your reasons.

 >> 
 >> 
 >> Elite 
 >> Priestly DelegationX.2 bolt pistol and close combat weapons 12
 >> 

 Only 2? Very interesting. Well I guess it's good not to be too dependent on Faith points.
 Which Squads do they go with?

 >> 
 >> Troops 
 >> BattleSquadX10 2 flamers 106 
 >> BattleSquadX10 10 106 
 >> BattleSquadX10 10 2 meltaguns 120 
 >> redemptionistsX17 mob weapons, leader with close combat weapon. 2 grenade
 launchers,zealot 128 
 >> BattleSquadX5 50 
 >> BattleSquadX5 50 
 >> 

 Only one Zealot? Well, it's a good large yet low cost mob. I can see this as a reasonable
 general purpose unit that can still worry people, but isn't dedicated to only one purpose.

 >> 
 >> Fast Attack 
 >> Seraphim SquadX9 16 2 Flamer Pistols, Frags,krak grenades,power weapon 182 
 >> Seraphim SquadX5 16 2 Flamer Pistols, Frags, powerweapon, meltabombs 120 
 >> Mechanized SOB squadX9 2meltaguns, Vet sister with Flail, meltabombs, and pistol
 Rhino with smoke 183 
 >> 

 Large anti-personnel Seraphim Squad with the other two providing mobile anti-tank support...

 >> Heavy Support 
 >> Iron Fist Sqaud10 6 LasCannon, Plasma gun 88 
 >> Chimera Hull Heavy Bolter, Autolaunchers, MultiLaser 88 
 >> 
 >> Retributor SquadX5 3 HBs 80 
 >> 
 >> exorcist 100 
 >> Total Num models 110 points 1699 Faith 8

 Lots of varied long range support as well. A very large army as well. I assume it plays well for
 you... 
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               Always sweeping . (22 Replies). cwolf[]. 2/25/2002 16:07 (2/27/2002 21:26) 
 >> Got a question for ya; The rule is that a unit that wins Moral Highground after a drawn
 combat can only consolidate and can not pursue the fleeing unit. Does the "always sweep' rule
 of the BA supercede that? I lost 3 above strength units that way and after the game I was
 reminded about the Moral Highground rule that we both forgot...
 >> 

 Nope, this is actually something GW apparently considered... both BA and Black Templar
 have the clause in their "must sweep" rule of "if they would normally be able to do so" (or
 something to this effect). 
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                   RE: Always sweeping . (21 Replies). Courage[]. 2/26/2002 9:19 (2/27/2002 21:26) 

 >> Nope, this is actually something GW apparently considered... both BA and Black Templar
 have the clause in their "must sweep" rule of "if they would normally be able to do so" (or
 something to this effect). 

 **Thanks C. I've been analyzing my battle strat and I'm going to start a different thread as this
 one's getting crowded with other discussion...

 Eric J 
 Reply 
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                       Analyzing the battle strat... . (20 Replies). Courage[]. 2/26/2002 10:15 (2/27/2002 21:26) 
 >> 
 >> **Thanks C. I've been analyzing my battle strat and I'm going to start a different thread as
 this one's getting crowded with other discussion...
 >> 
 >> Eric J

 **Okay I lied, I'll discuss it here...

 I went through the games last night looking for what I did wrong and right and came up with
 several issues the dice not withstanding;

 Let's take the a look at the BA game. The deployment was the same for cleanse and he
 deployed first dropping his Vindicator(I love that tank) right at the edge of his quarter. Smart
 move as this immediately put me on the defensive and drove me back farther from his base
 camp(the objective). He then placed his Pred at the head of what was to become his convoy
 in order to protect his Rhinos.

 I concentrated way too much on the Vindicator and far too little on the column of APC's
 coming at me. Had I taken out the Pred rather than the Vindicator his Rhinos would have had
 to find a way around it. I could have also sent my Seraphim after the Vin with Meltas. They
 would have gotten there turn 1. It seems I was so worried about my mobility that I paid no
 attention to his. Had I popped the rhino with his Sanguinary that would have changed things
 dramatically.

 When I played against the Eldar where we had to reach each others HQ I decided first turn I
 wouldn't get there so I played the game my way. He flew to me and I whittled him away
 rather than waste resources running across a whole battlefield. I won decisively.

 The draw against the Dark angels was actually quite funny in a mission that changed the game
 from turn to turn. It was fun but not worth commenting on tactics-wise. My ice rolling was so
 bad that I kept stunning his vehicles disallowing his units from embarking. He couldn't get out,
 I couldn't get in. It was the battle that never was...

 The loss to the Orks was a 2 turn game with a dink who deliberately wasted the clock and
 wasn't WYSIWYG. Again nothing to really talk about constructively.

 Live and learn...

 Eric J 
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                           Your problem was . (19 Replies). carmachu[]. 2/26/2002 15:07 (2/27/2002 21:26) 

 >> 
 >> I concentrated way too much on the Vindicator and far too little on the column of APC's
 coming at me. Had I taken out the Pred rather than the Vindicator his Rhinos would have had
 to find a way around it. I could have also sent my Seraphim after the Vin with Meltas. They
 would have gotten there turn 1. It seems I was so worried about my mobility that I paid no
 attention to his. Had I popped the rhino with his Sanguinary that would have changed things
 dramatically.
 >>

 WAS the same problem many have when dealing with marine landraiders and wraithlords-
 you concentrated too much on it, and ignored everything else to your detriment. Thats why I
 usually send the carnifex out to deal with, for example, pablo's crusader, and he got distracted
 by the carni, and instead of using the crusader to kill lots of little guys(cause thats what it
 does), he shot everything at the carnifex, who just shrugs off small arms fire.
 
 
 
 

 carmen 
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                               RE: Your problem was . (3 Replies). Courage[]. 2/26/2002 15:31 (2/26/2002 16:51) 
 >> 
 >> >> 
 >> >> I concentrated way too much on the Vindicator and far too little on the column of
 APC's coming at me. Had I taken out the Pred rather than the Vindicator his Rhinos would
 have had to find a way around it. I could have also sent my Seraphim after the Vin with
 Meltas. They would have gotten there turn 1. It seems I was so worried about my mobility
 that I paid no attention to his. Had I popped the rhino with his Sanguinary that would have
 changed things dramatically.
 >> >>
 >> 
 >> WAS the same problem many have when dealing with marine landraiders and wraithlords-
 you concentrated too much on it, and ignored everything else to your detriment. Thats why I
 usually send the carnifex out to deal with, for example, pablo's crusader, and he got distracted
 by the carni, and instead of using the crusader to kill lots of little guys(cause thats what it
 does), he shot everything at the carnifex, who just shrugs off small arms fire.
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >> carmen

 **I thought I just said that?!

 Eric J 
 Reply 
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                                   RE: RE: Your problem was . (2 Replies). carmachu[]. 2/26/2002 15:43 (2/26/2002
 16:51) 
 >> >> 
 >> >> >> 
 >> >> >> I concentrated way too much on the Vindicator and far too little on the column of
 APC's coming at me. Had I taken out the Pred rather than the Vindicator his Rhinos would
 have had to find a way around it. I could have also sent my Seraphim after the Vin with
 Meltas. They would have gotten there turn 1. It seems I was so worried about my mobility
 that I paid no attention to his. Had I popped the rhino with his Sanguinary that would have
 changed things dramatically.
 >> >> >>
 >> >> 
 >> >> WAS the same problem many have when dealing with marine landraiders and
 wraithlords- you concentrated too much on it, and ignored everything else to your detriment.
 Thats why I usually send the carnifex out to deal with, for example, pablo's crusader, and he
 got distracted by the carni, and instead of using the crusader to kill lots of little guys(cause
 thats what it does), he shot everything at the carnifex, who just shrugs off small arms fire.
 >> >> 
 >> >> 
 >> >> 
 >> >> 
 >> >> 
 >> >> carmen
 >> 
 >> **I thought I just said that?!
 >> 
 >> Eric J

 Yeah, but I thought I reenforce it? That and be a pain and remind you that you cant sweep
 after losing morale high ground.....how many times are you gonna forget that? 

 seriously though, drop me a line. I'd like to share some thoughts with you.

 carmen 
 Reply 
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                                       RE: RE: RE: Your problem was . (1 Replies). Courage[]. 2/26/2002 15:58
 (2/26/2002 16:51) 

 >> 
 >> Yeah, but I thought I reenforce it? That and be a pain and remind you that you cant sweep
 after losing morale high ground.....how many times are you gonna forget that? 
 >> 
 >> seriously though, drop me a line. I'd like to share some thoughts with you.
 >> 
 >> carmen

 **In the future I'm going to ask my opponents to allow me to affix a post-it note with
 MORAL HIGH GROUND written on it smack dab in the middle of their foreheads...

 Eric J 
 Reply 
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                                           RE: RE: RE: RE: Your problem was . (0 Replies). carmachu[]. 2/26/2002
 16:51 (2/26/2002 16:51) 
 >> 
 >> >> 
 >> >> Yeah, but I thought I reenforce it? That and be a pain and remind you that you cant
 sweep after losing morale high ground.....how many times are you gonna forget that? 
 >> >> 
 >> >> seriously though, drop me a line. I'd like to share some thoughts with you.
 >> >> 
 >> >> carmen
 >> 
 >> **In the future I'm going to ask my opponents to allow me to affix a post-it note with
 MORAL HIGH GROUND written on it smack dab in the middle of their foreheads...
 >> 
 >> Eric J

 Write it on your hands. You'll have to look at it sooner or later to roll dice....Especially if your
 opponent wanders off...

 carmen 
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                               Bait and switch?... . (14 Replies). RedShoulder[]. 2/26/2002 17:15 (2/27/2002 21:26) 
 >> ...the same problem many have when dealing with marine landraiders and wraithlords- you
 concentrated too much on it, and ignored everything else to your detriment.

 That's what I was thinking. The best way that I have dealt with Eldar Wraithlords in the past,
 was to ignore them until there was nothing else for my Sisters to shoot at. It worked like a
 charm. 

 "Kill what you can. Worry about what you can't later..."

 >> Thats why I usually send the carnifex out to deal with, for example, pablo's crusader, and
 he got distracted by the carni, and instead of using the crusader to kill lots of little guys(cause
 thats what it does), he shot everything at the carnifex, who just shrugs off small arms fire.
 >> 

 I used to always use my Immolators as diversions. Very distracting to soft armor armies...

 Large swarms of Troops just don't seem to draw much attention. I think it's funny... 
 Reply 
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                                   RE: Bait and switch?... . (13 Replies). carmachu[]. 2/26/2002 17:20 (2/27/2002 21:26) 

 >> 
 >> Large swarms of Troops just don't seem to draw much attention. I think it's funny...
 

 i was playing bugs- my units held 20 gaunts. Raul's had gaunt units of 32. Its not that they dont
 draw any attention, its that no one thinks they can kill the unit thats so large, so they try
 something "easier".

 carmen 
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                                       Easier? What about closer?.. . (12 Replies). RedShoulder[]. 2/26/2002 17:42
 (2/27/2002 21:26) 
 >> 
 >> >> 
 >> >> Large swarms of Troops just don't seem to draw much attention. I think it's funny...
 >> 
 >> 
 >> i was playing bugs- my units held 20 gaunts. Raul's had gaunt units of 32. Its not that they
 don't draw any attention, its that no one thinks they can kill the unit thats so large, so they try
 something "easier".
 >> 

 Last time I played against the bugs, there were 2 Broods of Hormagaunts, 2 Broods of
 Termagants and 2 Broods of Genestealers. I had my Sisters stand still and Rapid fire into
 them for about a turn or two just to whittle their numbers down before the hit my lines. My
 Exorcists shot at his Warriors and I just ignored the Carnifex, Hive Tyrant, Tyrant Guard and
 2 Zoanthropes until all of the Troops were gone. Once the Carnifex had wiped out my
 Dominion Squad, I shot him to pieces during his Sweeping Advance.

 I think I may have only fired at his Tyrant and Guard once. They were busy chasing my
 Seraphim anyway...

 It's funny what players consider to be the greatest threat on the board. Sometimes past
 experiences will skew their judgement. It can often be nice to have a unit that provides that
 psychological edge by goading people into devoting more resources than is efficient to destroy
 it...
 

 Keep the Faith! 
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                                           RE: Easier? What about closer?.. . (11 Replies). dielkathan[]. 2/27/2002
 16:02 (2/27/2002 21:26) 
 gotta agree. people see 128 gaunts and they ignore them to shoot at a carnifex??? who moves
 6"??? carnifex gets lit up, tyrant takes wounds - maybe even dies, warriors take casualties.

 then 128 untouched gaunts hit their line and kill everything, with rippers doing mop up.

 always makes me laugh when people try to "destroy the hive mind". what soldier would shoot
 a "big thing" that is a long way away with a "little gun" when he can kill the "little thing" that are
 in his face???

 just don't get it

 >> >> 
 >> >> >> 
 >> >> >> Large swarms of Troops just don't seem to draw much attention. I think it's funny...
 >> >> 
 >> >> 
 >> >> i was playing bugs- my units held 20 gaunts. Raul's had gaunt units of 32. Its not that
 they don't draw any atte